SOP to land with 10 degrees of flaps in 172?

[CpnCrunch]

Not sure where people are getting the idea that I am advocating 10 deg flaps as the norm for landing. I thought I was pretty clear with my post on page one of this thread.

I think . just expects you to be able to fix all the problems in flight training.

Anyway, I doubt this came from TC. I'm not sure how ab initio PPLs are trained at either of these schools, but I'd hope that they make sure they can recover properly from a bounce. If you know how to do that, it should be a non-event.

[Cat Driver]

but I'd hope that they make sure they can recover properly from a bounce. If you know how to do that, it should be a non-event.

It is even more simple than that.

It boggles the mind that so many instructors can't even teach their students something as basic as flairing at the correct height above the surface and as speed decays assuming the landing attitude ( Which will insure the nose wheel can not contact the ground before the mains. (how much flaps are being used does not prevent you from selecting and maintaining the proper attitude).

One thing T.C. understands is inertia.

They have been stuck in the no change mode for decades, but they sure know how to cash their paychecks.....which are nothing more than a form of welfare for doing nothing.

When I think of how pathetic the T.C. flight training department is I always remember the top bureaucrat in Ottawa, I found him to be the most stupid individual I ever had the misfortune to have to deal with, but he was the final push I needed to sell my school and get out of flight training in Canada.

[CpnCrunch]

It boggles the mind that so many instructors can't even teach their students something as basic as flairing at the correct height above the surface and as speed decays assuming the landing attitude ( Which will insure the nose wheel can not contact the ground before the mains. (how much flaps are being used does not prevent you from selecting and maintaining the proper attitude).

I'm not sure it's that simple. Different loading (weight and CofG will affect the flare required. The only time I've bounced in recent years was when landing a 172 with a big guy in the back, as I wasn't used to it. (Easily recovered from).

[photofly]

It boggles the mind that so many instructors can't even teach their students something as basic as..

But how many is "so many"?

And how do you know?

[Cat Driver]

But how many is "so many"?

And how do you know?

Over the decades I have been involved in flight training I have observed many, many pilots at many airports performing controlled crashes they call landings.

Over the many decades I have been involved in flight training I have questioned many, many pilots I have been giving training to and asked them who taught them to land.....their answer was their instructor.

There you go I answered your question.

P.S.

Of course not all instructors are inept, the problem is how do the inept ones get licensed and how do they keep instructing?

[JasonE]

And I thought they landed themselves
"You drive it up!"
"You drive it down!"

[trey kule]

cat:

I was being facetious suggesting 10-15 hours more training to learn to land with flaps...i expect it should not take more than 8 extra hours

[Cat Driver]

Flight training will never improve until the quality of instruction is improved and that is determined by the regulator.

If the instructor is lacking in skills, experience and motivation adding more hours will only cost the students more money.

And speaking of money how can anyone expect quality instruction when the instructor is paid so poorly they can not live above the poverty line?

[PilotDAR]

Exactly.

Instructor skills and qualifications may be regulated by Transport Canada standard and oversight, but those are the minimums. It's up to the consumer (the student pilot) to demand more than the minimum. Who goes into a nice restaurant and expects the least - and we still tip the server. Why should learning to fly be any different? It is the student's responsibility, while arranging the training for such a life critical skill, to determine what (hopefully exceeding the TC minimums) they want to learn, and make sure it happens. Go and find the instructor with the skill and experience to guide you in making the most of the learning opportunity. And, pay them what they are worth! What's your life worth? Piloting is a life preservation skill, better to pay for the best training!

Read the flight manual, does it tell you that the 172 can be landed anywhere zero to 30/40 flaps? Yup! Then you want to be trained in those skills, and when to use them. Limiting ops in a 172 to 10 flap is akin to saying that the back seat may never be occupied. Yeah, loading up the back seat of a 172 introduces new factors the pilot must be aware of, and account for, but that is a trained skill. If your training and judgement of conditions tell you that 10 flap is suitable for the landing you intend, then do that. But, (strong crosswinds accepted) never be afraid of a full flap landing in a 172! If doing that causes concern (about banging the nosewheel) you need to unlearn a couple of bad habits with some advanced training. I worry that an aircraft provider with an SOP for 10 flap is not the right source of the needed training - they're just thinking about things wrong.....

[5x5]

This place makes me laugh sometimes - but only because I'm too socially insecure to cry.

Someone makes an anonymous comment about something they've heard related to training somewhere and suddenly any number of posters (including a group of frequent offenders) start forming a virtual lynch mob and the comment morphs to a condemnation of all flight training, all schools and all instructors. It seems that it has become de rigueur to bitch about the lack of quality in flight training in Canada.

As for SOPs - any business is entitled to implement any SOP they want for whatever reason they want. And in their minds, based on actual experience operating an FTU with all the nuances of maintenance, staffing, regulation, etc, what they are doing is completely reasonable. SOPs don't negate the delivery of training but simply reflect the recommendations/requirements of the owner/operator for normal operations. Anyone who gets all twisted out of shape and feels they know exactly how a school should operate and train pilots should open their own magnificent school that would provide their version of excellent flight training. Then, when everyone realizes how obviously great they are compared to the current crop of useless FTUs, they won't be able to beat the potential students off with sticks, they'll make oodles and oodles of $$$ and bask in the glow of admiration that will be expressed by all the previously negative posters here since finally, proper training will be available in Canada.

[lownslow]

And I thought they landed themselves
"You drive it up!"
"You drive it down!"

Hey, look at those flaps! Definitely not 40, or 30, or maybe even 20, and not fully retracted. The plot thickens...

[CpnCrunch]

This place makes me laugh sometimes - but only because I'm too socially insecure to cry.

Someone makes an anonymous comment about something they've heard related to training somewhere and suddenly any number of posters

I'll just say that this isn't something I "heard somewhere", it comes directly from the two schools involved.

Also, both these schools do in fact teach short-field landings with full flaps.

[photofly]

Ask them.

Or PM me the details and I'll ask - I'm not shy.

[CpnCrunch]

Ask them.

Or PM me the details and I'll ask - I'm not shy.

Ask who what? The reason for this SOP has already been posted earlier in this thread by someone who knows.

[photofly]

Which post was that?

[PilotDAR]

For all of the common 100 series Cessnas, the extension of at least 10, though up to 20 flap increases the slower speed effectiveness of the elevator. I have found this a useful trick when having to taxi across rough ground or gravel, and wanting the nose light.

To experience the phenomenon for yourself in the 150/152/172/182 of your choice, try the following: With some open runway or apron ahead of you, pointed into a slight breeze if there is one; leave the flaps up, hold the wheel all the way nose up, open the throttle to at least 2000 RPM. Release the brakes so the plane can roll 5 to 10 feet, and note how much the nose comes up. Now, repeat with each of 10, and 20 flap selected. Expect to see the nose come up higher, and the effect has been shown: All other things being equal, the flap extension will affect elevator effectiveness. As silly as it sounds, use caution not to bang the tail, my 150 would touch the tail to the ground if I let it doing this.

Which means that though I'm not keen on physiologically limiting a pilots thinking to "should use 10", the use of even 10 flap will enable pilots to preserve nosewheels better than zero flap landings.