SOP to land with 10 degrees of flaps in 172?

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Cat Driver
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Re: SOP to land with 10 degrees of flaps in 172?

Post by Cat Driver »

Have them read this thread.

I am truly gobsmacked that any group of pilots could possibly be flying tail wheel airplanes and not have a clue how to fly them.

Like I previously said it is unsafe not to allow wheel landings how is it even possible a whole group could be so ignorant about tail wheel flying??

Tell whoever made that rule to read this and maybe we can help them out.

Jeses I can't believe this.
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Re: SOP to land with 10 degrees of flaps in 172?

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

This thread is about FTU's landing C 172's with 10 deg of flap. Why are we discussing an operation that is not an FTU, not doing wheel landings :smt017
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Re: SOP to land with 10 degrees of flaps in 172?

Post by Adam Oke »

Big Pistons Forever wrote:This thread is about FTU's landing C 172's with 10 deg of flap. Why are we discussing an operation that is not an FTU, not doing wheel landings :smt017
I made the comparison that it is just as silly to ban wheel landings as to bar students from operating the flaps to their full capacity. These silly rules go hand in hand. Introducing a rule simply due to the fact that they can not safely land the aircraft in that particular configuration, under normal circumstances, is an unacceptable practice.

I wholeheartedly feel that if one believes that their student can not safely land under normal configurations, then they are not safe for solo. IMO, the training should continue until the student can safely operate the aircraft in all configurations, not only for competency sake, but also in the event of failures. I have had flap motor failures, run-away flaps to full flap, a flap handle snap off in my hand with full flaps deployed, and I have also had a tail wheel snap off at the leaf spring. These are all very real scenarios that require a pilot to be able to land "normally" with these types of failures.

Creating SOP's to only use 10 degrees of flaps and SOPs for wheel landings only is nonsense.
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Re: SOP to land with 10 degrees of flaps in 172?

Post by photofly »

Adam Oke wrote: I made the comparison that it is just as silly to ban wheel landings as to bar students from operating the flaps to their full capacity.

...

Creating SOP's to only use 10 degrees of flaps ... is nonsense.
There is nowhere in this thread a statement that any flying students, anywhere in Canada, are barred or in any way restricted from operating their flaps to their full extension. A few people need to take a chill pill and read what was actually written, rather than what they think (hope?) was written so they can rail against it.
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Re: SOP to land with 10 degrees of flaps in 172?

Post by Adam Oke »

photofly wrote:
Adam Oke wrote: I made the comparison that it is just as silly to ban wheel landings as to bar students from operating the flaps to their full capacity.

...

Creating SOP's to only use 10 degrees of flaps ... is nonsense.
There is nowhere in this thread a statement that any flying students, anywhere in Canada, are barred or in any way restricted from operating their flaps to their full extension. A few people need to take a chill pill and read what was actually written, rather than what they think (hope?) was written so they can rail against it.
Sorry for my incorrect phraseology; using the term bar vs creating a band-aid SOP solution (as explained by other posters, not me). My message still stands and has merit after reading why FTU's are implementing the "SOP". Don't create SOP's as band-aid solutions in lieu of training to operate the aircraft under all configuration. I would hope that FTU's aren't recommending students do normal landings at 10 degrees....I would hope they are recommending students practice in every configuration possible to practice what they have learned.

This 10 degree thing is news to me. I'm not sure who came up with that idea, but I have never run into anyone, let alone an FTU, tell me that putting out more flap risks smacking the nose wheel.
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Re: SOP to land with 10 degrees of flaps in 172?

Post by crazyaviator »

One of the easiest aircraft to fly in the history of mankind and we cannot agree on flap settings ! Hmmm, Do the students who snap the NW off and flip her on its back get a passing "satisfactory" for their "attempt" in this snowflake, blameless, safe space, PC, leftist, no-fault new-age society?
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Re: SOP to land with 10 degrees of flaps in 172?

Post by Adam Oke »

crazyaviator wrote:One of the easiest aircraft to fly in the history of mankind and we cannot agree on flap settings ! Hmmm, Do the students who snap the NW off and flip her on its back get a passing "satisfactory" for their "attempt" in this snowflake, blameless, safe space, PC, leftist, no-fault new-age society?
I think they are entitled to their "safe room" prior to de-brief at the very least! :lol:
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Re: SOP to land with 10 degrees of flaps in 172?

Post by photofly »

creating a band-aid SOP solution (as explained by other posters, not me)
I don't think most of those other posters have any more accurate information about what or why, than you do.

Maybe CpnCrunch ("I see a number of flight schools here have an SOP that says to land their 172s with 10 degrees of flaps unless doing a short field landing. I'm curious what the reason is.") could elaborate on how many counts as a "number" of flight schools out of a total of 229 in Canada. One is also a number, after all - and maybe he or we could ask directly at that flight school or schools why, instead of guessing.

In other news today, two people gave their opinions on the inside leg measurement of the Emperor of China, and forty four others piled in to say that the first two were both entirely wrong, and things were better back in the days when the Emperor stuck to wearing a dress and pantyhose.
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Re: SOP to land with 10 degrees of flaps in 172?

Post by CpnCrunch »

photofly wrote: Maybe CpnCrunch ("I see a number of flight schools here have an SOP that says to land their 172s with 10 degrees of flaps unless doing a short field landing. I'm curious what the reason is.") could elaborate on how many counts as a "number" of flight schools out of a total of 229 in Canada.
2 schools (100% of the schools in a large city). Let's leave it at that. I'd hazard a guess that the SOP came from one school and was introduced from there to the other one, presumably to try to prevent broken nosewheels.

I know there are many annoying rules at FTUs, I just thought this one was more counterproductive than useful (albeit not a rule, just a "normal way we do things, but you can do a 20 degree flap landing after you show me a 10 degree one"). I don't see it written down anywhere at this school, but it is written down at the other school (again, not a rule, just in their written SOPs).
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Re: SOP to land with 10 degrees of flaps in 172?

Post by Cat Driver »

This thread is about FTU's landing C 172's with 10 deg of flap. Why are we discussing an operation that is not an FTU, not doing wheel landings :smt017
If the FTU's trained their students properly then there would be less pilots not knowing how to fly properly.

You are now in a position to help correct this appalling situation, however seeing as you failed to connect the dots I do not have much hope anything will change through your efforts.

However I have done my best by trying to answer your question.
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Re: SOP to land with 10 degrees of flaps in 172?

Post by photofly »

I will guess that it was introduced to the other school by a TC inspector who "suggested" it to the CFI.
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Re: SOP to land with 10 degrees of flaps in 172?

Post by Cat Driver »

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Looks like he is not going to respond to my post.

I really wanted him to explain why he made those comments.
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Re: SOP to land with 10 degrees of flaps in 172?

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

Not sure where people are getting the idea that I am advocating 10 deg flaps as the norm for landing. I thought I was pretty clear with my post on page one of this thread.

Big Pistons Forever wrote:
Re teaching landings, my 02 cents

When I instructed in C 172's I taught new pilots to use 10 deg of flap for crosswind, 20 deg for normal landings and 30 deg for short field. The only time 40 deg was used ( if available) was for forced approaches.

20 flap Approach speed was 65 kts, + 0 and - 5. I found that an on speed approach required a proper flare, resulted in enough float so that the student could learn to manage the aircraft in the flare, yet the time in the flare wasn't so excessive that the student was likely to over control, so that in my mind maximum learning occurred.
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Re: SOP to land with 10 degrees of flaps in 172?

Post by trey kule »

So, if I understand this in depth discussion on how to teach students to properly land about the easiest plane they will ever fly, the problem started when they were not taught properly, so nose wheels were being damaged at a higher rate than would be expected from students.

The solution was not to do remedial training of instructors to teach students better, but to do a work around by using a specific flap setting, because apparently higher flap settings were just to challanging. You have to wonder why Cessna even bothered with higher flap settings. Obviously a dangerous design flaw.

How about this....we add another, say 10 or 15 hours of dual to the ppl to teach real world, highly student motivated,training scenarios regarding the use of no to full flap landings. Make sure to say " good job". If the student doesn't damage a nose wheel.

They can learn about wing flaps after they get thrir CPL and are learning about cowl flaps, proper leaning, and how to use a GPS.
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Re: SOP to land with 10 degrees of flaps in 172?

Post by Cat Driver »

How about this....we add another, say 10 or 15 hours of dual to the ppl to teach real worlld, highly student motivated,training scenarios regarding the use of no to full flap landings. Make sure to say " good job". If the student doesn't damage a nose wheel.
How about ensuring the instructors are competent to properly teach flying?

Adding more time to the course will only mean that flight training will remain sub standard.
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Re: SOP to land with 10 degrees of flaps in 172?

Post by CpnCrunch »

Big Pistons Forever wrote:Not sure where people are getting the idea that I am advocating 10 deg flaps as the norm for landing. I thought I was pretty clear with my post on page one of this thread.
I think . just expects you to be able to fix all the problems in flight training.

Anyway, I doubt this came from TC. I'm not sure how ab initio PPLs are trained at either of these schools, but I'd hope that they make sure they can recover properly from a bounce. If you know how to do that, it should be a non-event.
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Re: SOP to land with 10 degrees of flaps in 172?

Post by Cat Driver »

but I'd hope that they make sure they can recover properly from a bounce. If you know how to do that, it should be a non-event.

It is even more simple than that.

It boggles the mind that so many instructors can't even teach their students something as basic as flairing at the correct height above the surface and as speed decays assuming the landing attitude ( Which will insure the nose wheel can not contact the ground before the mains. (how much flaps are being used does not prevent you from selecting and maintaining the proper attitude).

One thing T.C. understands is inertia.

They have been stuck in the no change mode for decades, but they sure know how to cash their paychecks.....which are nothing more than a form of welfare for doing nothing.

When I think of how pathetic the T.C. flight training department is I always remember the top bureaucrat in Ottawa, I found him to be the most stupid individual I ever had the misfortune to have to deal with, but he was the final push I needed to sell my school and get out of flight training in Canada.
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Re: SOP to land with 10 degrees of flaps in 172?

Post by CpnCrunch »

Cat Driver wrote: It boggles the mind that so many instructors can't even teach their students something as basic as flairing at the correct height above the surface and as speed decays assuming the landing attitude ( Which will insure the nose wheel can not contact the ground before the mains. (how much flaps are being used does not prevent you from selecting and maintaining the proper attitude).
I'm not sure it's that simple. Different loading (weight and CofG will affect the flare required. The only time I've bounced in recent years was when landing a 172 with a big guy in the back, as I wasn't used to it. (Easily recovered from).
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Re: SOP to land with 10 degrees of flaps in 172?

Post by photofly »

Cat Driver wrote: It boggles the mind that so many instructors can't even teach their students something as basic as..

But how many is "so many"?

And how do you know?
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Re: SOP to land with 10 degrees of flaps in 172?

Post by Cat Driver »


But how many is "so many"?

And how do you know?
Over the decades I have been involved in flight training I have observed many, many pilots at many airports performing controlled crashes they call landings.

Over the many decades I have been involved in flight training I have questioned many, many pilots I have been giving training to and asked them who taught them to land.....their answer was their instructor.

There you go I answered your question.

P.S.

Of course not all instructors are inept, the problem is how do the inept ones get licensed and how do they keep instructing?
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