Can a student (PPL) permit train in a multi engine aircraft?

[ryanisflyin83]

Hello all. I hope this isn't a silly question... If I hold a solo student permit, working towards my PPL can I train in a multi engine aircraft? I have recently come across a hard to refuse offer on a multi-engine aircraft but I dont have my PPL yet, let alone my multi engine rating. I guess a better way to ask my question is it possible to simultaneously earn my PPL & multi engine? Or must I obtain my PPL on a single and then get rated for multi?

Thanks!

[tbayav8er]

[url]https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/ ... #schedule7 /url]

According to this, all you need for admission to a multi engine flight test, is a student pilot permit, and an instructor recommend of course. You would have to do several flights with an instructor to cover all of the required exercises, and perform them to the required standard obviously before you get a recommend. But after passing the flight test, I don't see why you couldn't continue your PPL training on the twin.

Some people might argue that it's better to train on a more simple aircraft starting out, but I'm also of the opinion that getting used to staying on top of engine parameters, learning constant speed and using retractable gear as early as possible will also develop your airmanship sooner than if you spent the whole time flying fixed pitch, fixed gear single engine planes. Just my personal opinion.

Good luck with the training!

[ryanisflyin83]

Thank you very much for that information! It is very helpful.

[nbinont]

Interesting question. Setting aside the question of whether or not this is a good idea, and only looking at the CARS:

Per CAR 101.01(1) aircraft are divided into categories:

category means (a) when used in reference to flight crew licensing, the classification of aircraft as an aeroplane, a balloon, a glider, a gyroplane, a helicopter or an ultra-light aeroplane

And aeroplanes are further divided into "classes":

class, in relation to the classification of aeroplanes, means aeroplanes having similar operating characteristics to single-engined aeroplanes, multi-engined aeroplanes, centre-line thrust aeroplanes, land aeroplanes or sea aeroplanes; (classe)

CAR 401.06 (1) basically states the permit, licence, or rating shall be issued/endorsed if you meet the requirements listed in the doc tbayav8er linked.

Then CAR 401.38 states that aeroplane "class" ratings may only be endorsed to the aeroplane versions of ATPL/CPL/PPL/REC.

Hold on, wait a minute - "single-engined aeroplanes" is an aeroplane class rating (as is seaplane or multi-engine), and 401.38 states a class rating may not be endorsed on a student pilot permit! If I can't endorse a student pilot permit to fly a single-engined aeroplane, then we have an absurd problem. To resolve it, take a look at the restrictions on the PPL/REC and student pilot permit:

REC: 401.22 (a) pilot-in-command of an aeroplane of a class and type in respect of which the permit is endorsed with a rating where...
PPL: 401.26 (a) pilot-in-command or co-pilot of an aeroplane of a class and type in respect of which the licence is endorsed with ratings;

Both are restricted to the endorsed class. However, take a look at the Student Pilot Restrictions:

401.19 (1) The holder of a student pilot permit may act as pilot-in-command of an aircraft of the category for which the permit is endorsed if

(a) the flight is conducted for the purpose of the holder’s flight training;

(b) the flight is conducted in Canada;

(c) the flight is conducted under day VFR;

(d) the flight is conducted under the direction and supervision of a person qualified to provide training toward the permit, licence or rating for which the pilot-in-command experience is required; and

(e) no passenger is carried on board.

Note that there's no class restriction, you are only restricted to the category. And of course: (d) the flight is conducted under the direction and supervision of a person qualified to provide training toward the permit, licence or rating for which the pilot-in-command experience is required;

So my interpretation is that a student pilot doesn't need a multi-engine rating (and in fact can't get one on the student pilot permit). However, they are permitted to fly a multi-engine aircraft at the discretion of their instructor.

[Cat Driver]

The cost to learn on a multi engine airplane would be horrendous even if you owned the airplane.

Get the PPL on a cheap single engine then get the multi engine rating added on.

The multi engine rating can be done in five hours of training plus an hour for the check ride.

[youhavecontrol]

I really have a hard time seeing the benefit of doing the majority of your PPL training on a multi engine aircraft, unless the deal you've been offered is completely insane. As Cat Driver said, they're super expensive per hour. Plus, after you get your PPL on a single engine, the multi rating can be done easy... I did my multi in 3.8 hours, including the flight test.

Also, I'm not so sure a twin would be the best thing to do forced approaches, unusual attitude recovery, short field landing with obstacle, precautionary approaches, slips, etc.. with. Sure.. they're possible, but in a twin, I imagine it would be a handful for a PPL candidate.

[jg24]

On top of all listed above: cost, impracticality etc.... if the twin is not yours, I don't know how the owner, FTU/instructor(s), and yourself will agree with getting released for solo practice flights. There are plenty of solo sign outs during the PPL curriculum, and I can guarantee that most if not all FTUs will not release their twin solo to a student holder. Most light twins are fairly simple to operate for people with their CPL done and having 'mastered' the PPL and CPL phases of their training. But for a person who can basically get a cessna up in the circuit and back down, throwing the complexity of a multi engine aircraft is unnecessarily complicated, and I think dangerous too. Sure, some people are the next Bob Hoover, fair enough. But not most. You need to focus on the basics of flying during the PPL, having to handle a twin during your flight test gives you more chances for failure too. I'm just thinking of simple twins too like Seminoles, throw in turbochargers like a Seneca and it's just another layer of complexity to handle.

[photofly]

I don’t think the OP will actually face this dilemma for real.

PPL training can be conducted only at an FTU or in an aircraft owned or part owned by the student or a family member.

No FTU PPL syllabus would be approved by TC that involved PPL training on a twin, and no FTU could afford to offer a twin at a rate cheaper than a single, so this is clearly not happening at an FTU.

If it’s a friend’s plane he or she has been offered then it cannot be used regardless of how many engines it has.

If he or she is considering purchasing this plane or it belongs to a family member then two thoughts: there’s no such thing as a cheap twin: plenty of cheap ones to purchase, but the maintenance and running costs will drown you compared to hourly training at an FTU, and secondly I doubt any insurance company would want to look at an an unlicensed pilot in a complex twin.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I also would think it would be very difficult to get insurance for any solo flying in a twin when the PIC will only hold a SPP

I don’t think the complexity of the aircraft is that big an issue. I have done 2 PPL’sin a Nanchang CJ6. This aircraft had a 285 hp supercharged radial engine, constant speed prop,retractable landing gear and complex pneumatic systems. Both students needed some up front systems training but otherwise it was just another PPL course

The big issue would be finding competent instruction as the instructor would have to have both good ab initial teaching skills along with significant complex aircraft experience in order to be effective.