FTU-OC

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C.W.E.
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FTU-OC

Post by C.W.E. » Tue May 15, 2018 6:50 pm

From another thread......
Re: Exce$$ive ground briefings
#35 Post by C.W.E. » Sun May 13, 2018 4:50 pm

Back to my saying what Canada needs is to get rid of the FTU-OC fiasco and allow instructors to teach based on the fact they are licensed flight instructors like the FAA does.

We have T.C. inspector's that read these forums I am sure, maybe one could tell us why we need a FTU-OC to be able to teach the PPL?

I believe B.P.F. is a T.C. employee now and is in the flight training department?

Maybe he can comment?
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Re: FTU-OC

Post by Zaibatsu » Tue May 15, 2018 6:59 pm

We could always be like the United States and have a graduated instructor rating system (i.e.: single engine, twin engine, IFR, etc) and dumb ratings for everything else. I'm surprised they don't have a cowl flaps rating... and require a cowl flaps rated instructor to teach students on cowl flaps aircraft.
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Re: FTU-OC

Post by C.W.E. » Tue May 15, 2018 7:13 pm

We could always be like the United States and have a graduated instructor rating system (i.e.: single engine, twin engine, IFR, etc) and dumb ratings for everything else. I'm surprised they don't have a cowl flaps rating... and require a cowl flaps rated instructor to teach students on cowl flaps aircraft.
I have three questions for you Zaibatsu.

First.

What is wrong with demonstrating you are qualified and competent to teach those subjects?

Second question.

How much training have you done in the USA with their flight instructors under their training system?

Third question.

Have you gone through the process TC requires to be issued a FTU-OC?
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Re: FTU-OC

Post by photofly » Tue May 15, 2018 7:57 pm

Is it appropriate that TC requires an OC (and associated paperwork and oversight) if you run a 705 airline offering scheduled airline transport to the public?

Is it appropriate that TC requires an OC (and associated paperwork and oversight) if you run a 704 airline offering regional scheduled services to the public?

Is it appropriate that TC requires an OC (and associated paperwork and oversight) if you run a 703 charter operation offering air taxi services to the public?

Is it appropriate that TC requires an OC (and associated paperwork and oversight) if you run a 702 aerial work company offering services to the public (helicopter long line for example)?

Is it appropriate that TC requires an OC (and associated paperwork and oversight) if you offer flight training services to the public?
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Re: FTU-OC

Post by C.W.E. » Tue May 15, 2018 8:15 pm

My question was directed at comparing the FAA's rules to TCCA's rules.

In the USA a licensed flight instructor can give flight instruction for the issuance of a PPL without having to be the holder of a flight school certificate.

Lets examine this closer.
Is it appropriate that TC requires an OC (and associated paperwork and oversight) if you offer flight training services to the public?
In Canada you can teach multi engine ratings, IFR ratings, and seaplane ratings without needing a flying school certificate, does that not qualify as flight training services photofly?.

Am I to take it that one can teach these advanced skills and not be capable of teaching basic flying skills?
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Last edited by C.W.E. on Tue May 15, 2018 8:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

digits_
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Re: FTU-OC

Post by digits_ » Tue May 15, 2018 8:18 pm

photofly wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 7:57 pm
Is it appropriate that TC requires an OC (and associated paperwork and oversight) if you run a 705 airline offering scheduled airline transport to the public?

Is it appropriate that TC requires an OC (and associated paperwork and oversight) if you run a 704 airline offering regional scheduled services to the public?

Is it appropriate that TC requires an OC (and associated paperwork and oversight) if you run a 703 charter operation offering air taxi services to the public?

Is it appropriate that TC requires an OC (and associated paperwork and oversight) if you run a 702 aerial work company offering services to the public (helicopter long line for example)?

Is it appropriate that TC requires an OC (and associated paperwork and oversight) if you offer flight training services to the public?
Answers to those questions are meaningless without detailing what you find appropriate for an OC. That you require an OC for an FTU is not bad by itself. It is bad that it requires many months to years to get one. Instead of assuming all the paperwork that being submitted is wrong, they should assume everything is correct until proven otherwise. A bit like applying for an ATPL if you will: no way they can check every hour unless their is a strong suspicion of fraud. Same thing for the OC. Let's say max processing time should be 3 months for the whole thing. If something is wrong/missing/needs adjustment you change it right away and the change gets accepted right away. Not an additional 3 months for every spelling mistake.

Then, during operation, a quick visit is all that is needed -if that-, unless suspicion of fraud or infringements etc is there. A realistic knowledge of the CARs should be mandatory for the inspectors. Don't let results from inspections drag on for months / over a year. Theoretically, that's how it is supposed to be anyways, but some inspectors seem to have the need to go through everything and expect malice in every little document in every little typo that they find.

Overal I find the Canadian system pretty ok in itself, but it is just so excruciatingly slow if you want to operate an(y) aircraft commercially.
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Re: FTU-OC

Post by photofly » Tue May 15, 2018 8:33 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 8:15 pm
My question was directed at comparing the FAA's rules to TCCA's rules.

In the USA a licensed flight instructor can give flight instruction for the issuance of a PPL without having to be the holder of a flight school certificate.

Lets examine this closer.
Is it appropriate that TC requires an OC (and associated paperwork and oversight) if you offer flight training services to the public?
In Canada you can teach multi engine ratings, IFR ratings, and seaplane ratings without needing a flying school certificate, does that not qualify as flight training services photofly?.

Am I to take it that one can teach these advanced skills and not be capable of teaching basic flying skills?
I do see the inconsistency in allowing some training without an OC, but not all. If we want consistency, one way to achieve it is to require *all* training to be done at an FTU.

To refer to your specific point "Am I to take it that one can teach these advanced skills and not be capable of teaching basic flying skills" - yes, I think it's entirely possible to be able to teach advanced skills and not be able to teach the basics. There are a lot of people who can teach the differential calculus but would be lost teaching someone to count to ten. There are a lot of people who can teach journalism or english literature who wouldn't know how to teach someone to read.

I think individual instructors should be allowed to teach, without an OC. I think oversight for organisations who do flight training is appropriate. I also think that digits's point about what is the appropriate level of oversight is a good one.
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Re: FTU-OC

Post by C.W.E. » Tue May 15, 2018 8:50 pm

We are in agreement.
I think individual instructors should be allowed to teach, without an OC.
I think oversight for organisations who do flight training is appropriate.
We are in agreement.
I also think that digits's point about what is the appropriate level of oversight is a good one.
Not to mention the agony and financial losses one has to go through to get any operating certificate from TCCA, their process borders on being criminal treatment of a Canadian citizen by forcing them to spend up to years complying with their demanding rewriting of the applications because they found spelling or punctuation mistakes that a computer can correct in seconds instead of months.

We will see if anyone from TCCA will give their side of this subject.

Do you think they will?
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Re: FTU-OC

Post by C.W.E. » Tue May 15, 2018 8:58 pm

It would be a little bit more fair if we did not have to pay taxes while we were waiting for them to approve the O.C. application, and maybe that would speed up the process?
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Re: FTU-OC

Post by PilotDAR » Wed May 16, 2018 4:45 am

Am I to take it that one can teach these advanced skills and not be capable of teaching basic flying skills?
I think so. I am an example of a pilot who has trained other pilots in complex types, without being qualified to teach the basics. Whether I'm good or not in training basics is an unanswered question, I've never taken instructor training. I should know more about that skill. Occasionally, during advanced training, I have suspected that my candidate really needed more basic training. I tried, but think that perhaps I was not the best person to refresh the basic skills.
require a cowl flaps rated instructor to teach students on cowl flaps aircraft.
Perhaps a little extreme, though pilots should be conversant with the features of the types that they fly. This is best achieved through mentoring, perhaps during flight. Too often I have undertaken advanced training for someone, to find that they lacked some skills which should have been mentored to them, and they did not bother to, or know to seek for themselves.

I opine that Canada allows "experienced" float pilots to recommend for float endorsements because it can be acknowledged that the old timer at the bush operation really could mentor the newly licensed dock hand/pilot to be a float pilot - and probably do a better job of it than some flying schools who to not have the "environment" for that training. I think that 50 hours on class as a criteria is low though....
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Re: FTU-OC

Post by B208 » Wed May 16, 2018 6:53 am

photofly wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 7:57 pm
Is it appropriate that TC requires an OC (and associated paperwork and oversight) if you run a 705 airline offering scheduled airline transport to the public?
No
photofly wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 7:57 pm
Is it appropriate that TC requires an OC (and associated paperwork and oversight) if you run a 704 airline offering regional scheduled services to the public?
No
photofly wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 7:57 pm
Is it appropriate that TC requires an OC (and associated paperwork and oversight) if you run a 703 charter operation offering air taxi services to the public?
No
photofly wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 7:57 pm
Is it appropriate that TC requires an OC (and associated paperwork and oversight) if you run a 702 aerial work company offering services to the public (helicopter long line for example)?
No
photofly wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 7:57 pm
Is it appropriate that TC requires an OC (and associated paperwork and oversight) if you offer flight training services to the public?
No
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Re: FTU-OC

Post by Bede » Thu May 17, 2018 6:00 am

C.W.E. wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 8:50 pm
Not to mention the agony and financial losses one has to go through to get any operating certificate from TCCA, their process borders on being criminal treatment of a Canadian citizen by forcing them to spend up to years complying with their demanding rewriting of the applications because they found spelling or punctuation mistakes that a computer can correct in seconds instead of months.

We will see if anyone from TCCA will give their side of this subject.
I've never worked for TC, but have set up 2 FTU-OC- one in Pacific region, the other in Ontario. They were both in the slightly less than 2 month range from submission to issuance of the OC if I recall correctly. I've never felt it to be unreasonable.
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Re: FTU-OC

Post by digits_ » Thu May 17, 2018 7:33 am

Bede wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 6:00 am

I've never worked for TC, but have set up 2 FTU-OC- one in Pacific region, the other in Ontario. They were both in the slightly less than 2 month range from submission to issuance of the OC if I recall correctly. I've never felt it to be unreasonable.
In what year was that?
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Re: FTU-OC

Post by Bede » Thu May 17, 2018 10:27 am

digits_ wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 7:33 am
Bede wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 6:00 am

I've never worked for TC, but have set up 2 FTU-OC- one in Pacific region, the other in Ontario. They were both in the slightly less than 2 month range from submission to issuance of the OC if I recall correctly. I've never felt it to be unreasonable.
In what year was that?
Pacific c. 1999
Ontario c. 2008
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Re: FTU-OC

Post by C.W.E. » Thu May 17, 2018 3:01 pm

I've never worked for TC, but have set up 2 FTU-OC- one in Pacific region, the other in Ontario. They were both in the slightly less than 2 month range from submission to issuance of the OC if I recall correctly. I've never felt it to be unreasonable.
You have given two examples from your own experience Bede.

Am I to take it that slightly less than two months is the normal time frame for getting an operating certificate and just a few people experience far, far longer time to get approval or are stonewalled till we quit which happened to me, they stonewalled me for years not months.

Maybe we are just dangerous high risk people and T.C. is trying to protect the public from us?
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Re: FTU-OC

Post by trey kule » Thu May 17, 2018 8:19 pm

“Maybe we are just dangerous high risk people and T.C. is trying to protect the public from us?”

I think you nailed it!
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Re: FTU-OC

Post by C.W.E. » Thu May 17, 2018 8:38 pm

That has to be it trey kule because the OC I had applied for was for a FTU and the last thing TC wanted to see was me involved in people learning to fly.

Hell they may have turned out to be as dangerous and accident prone as I was. :prayer:
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Re: FTU-OC

Post by digits_ » Fri May 18, 2018 7:23 am

Bede wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 10:27 am
digits_ wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 7:33 am
Bede wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 6:00 am

I've never worked for TC, but have set up 2 FTU-OC- one in Pacific region, the other in Ontario. They were both in the slightly less than 2 month range from submission to issuance of the OC if I recall correctly. I've never felt it to be unreasonable.
In what year was that?
Pacific c. 1999
Ontario c. 2008
I am pleasantly surprised. Thanks!
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Re: FTU-OC

Post by Bede » Fri May 18, 2018 12:44 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 3:01 pm
I've never worked for TC, but have set up 2 FTU-OC- one in Pacific region, the other in Ontario. They were both in the slightly less than 2 month range from submission to issuance of the OC if I recall correctly. I've never felt it to be unreasonable.
You have given two examples from your own experience Bede.

Am I to take it that slightly less than two months is the normal time frame for getting an operating certificate and just a few people experience far, far longer time to get approval or are stonewalled till we quit which happened to me, they stonewalled me for years not months.

Maybe we are just dangerous high risk people and T.C. is trying to protect the public from us?
I have no idea what the "normal" time frame is. I have no idea why "just a few people" experience far longer times, but it would seem to suggest that long wait times have more to do with the applicant than systemic TC problems.

It's worthy to mention that there are people who are good pilots, but poor instructors. There's also good instructors but poor at government paperwork. I'm not a fan of government paperwork either, but I am pretty good at hoop jumping. Maybe that's why my TC stuff never takes that long.
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Re: FTU-OC

Post by C.W.E. » Fri May 18, 2018 2:23 pm

Well I can assure you my long wait had nothing to do with my being poor at government paper work Bede.

It did have a lot to do with abuse of power on the part of TC though, and it involved several TC managers right up to the top.

In the end I was far better off than when it all started but a few of them were not.

Especially the guy who started it as he became proof that government employees at that level do get fired.
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Re: FTU-OC

Post by digits_ » Fri May 18, 2018 6:35 pm

Bede wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 12:44 pm
It's worthy to mention that there are people who are good pilots, but poor instructors. There's also good instructors but poor at government paperwork. I'm not a fan of government paperwork either, but I am pretty good at hoop jumping. Maybe that's why my TC stuff never takes that long.
Try one at the CYWG office and report back here ;-)
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Re: FTU-OC

Post by C.W.E. » Sun May 20, 2018 6:02 pm

We have T.C. inspector's that read these forums I am sure, maybe one could tell us why we need a FTU-OC to be able to teach the PPL?

I believe B.P.F. is a T.C. employee now and is in the flight training department?

Maybe he can comment?
I am sure he reads this so when will he comment?
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Re: FTU-OC

Post by trey kule » Sun May 20, 2018 6:38 pm

Well, if he is now with TC, I would not expect him to come on here and post.

And quite frankly, I expect you understand why he, or anyone from TC , would not post on this thread, and the taunts are nothing more than what is referred to these days as cyber bullying.

End your career with respect for what you accomplished, instead of as a bitter old man who enjoys putting people down. You are better than that.
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Re: FTU-OC

Post by C.W.E. » Mon May 21, 2018 7:23 am

Well if asking for an answer to a simple question like I posed is cyber bullying trey kule then you or BPF can complain to Avcanada and have me banned to protect the public from someone as old and bitter as me.

Here was my question.

From another thread......
Re: Exce$$ive ground briefings
#35 Post by C.W.E. » Sun May 13, 2018 4:50 pm

Back to my saying what Canada needs is to get rid of the FTU-OC fiasco and allow instructors to teach based on the fact they are licensed flight instructors like the FAA does.

We have T.C. inspector's that read these forums I am sure, maybe one could tell us why we need a FTU-OC to be able to teach the PPL?

I believe B.P.F. is a T.C. employee now and is in the flight training department?

Maybe he can comment?
Where in that question was I being unreasonable?

And what exactly prevents TC from giving their reasons why they do not agree with the FAA on this issue?

And BPF posts here on Avcanada on a regular basis commenting on flight training issues.
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Re: FTU-OC

Post by trey kule » Mon May 21, 2018 7:43 am

Not to beleaguer this, but

i have a difficult time believing you do not know why a TC employee is not allowed to respond on a social media forum, or why the government employees are not allowed to post information on social media. It also applies to the policy of many corporations.

So you ask a question directed specifically to an individual, that you do, or should know they can not respond to. I ask you again. Do you really not understand why BPF can not respond if he works for TC? I have no idea if he is a TC employee or not, but apparently you do.

. You are simply picking on someone who can not respond..Putting out your thoughts with a challange to respond that you know darn well they are not allowed to.

You mentioned you are going to start instructing again. Great to hear. What with that and your building a Thatcher you should be able to live for today rather than conjure up old battles with TC.
it was good to hear that someone here got everything through in two months! From my experience, which has been limited these last few years, there have been some positive changes in TC.
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