tablet on the CPL checkride?

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Spinwmts
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tablet on the CPL checkride?

Post by Spinwmts » Mon May 28, 2018 9:02 am

Will the examiner let you take it on board? What if you disable GPS so you don't have the benefit for the little airplane showing u the way?

I use my ipad for everything from Checklists, W&B, to checking to see if I can get a burger at some random aerodrome on my xc. Would hate to have to go without it for such an important flight....not that I'm planning to stop for lunch...anyways I know I can hack it with my paper map (which I always have as a backup), but just wondering if I will have too?
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Re: tablet on the CPL checkride?

Post by CpnCrunch » Mon May 28, 2018 9:53 am

Fine for checklists, but the examiner will probably want you to put it away for the flight, and use paper maps, e6b (stone age or electronic, but not an app). Perhaps some examiners will allow you to use it, but I wouldn't count on it.

For w+b the examiner might ask you to calculate for a different plane, so just make sure you're comfortable doing it manually (with a calculator). For my test, I think I used an app and the instructor gave me various scenarios and asked me to calculate w+b for each.

I think the general idea is that you can use whatever apps and planning websites you want for the pre-flight planning, but in the plane they don't want you to rely on apps.
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Re: tablet on the CPL checkride?

Post by Spinwmts » Mon May 28, 2018 1:06 pm

CpnCrunch, Thanks for the info! I think I'll sit down with him a couple months before the ride and double check but might as well get the old paper out now :)
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Re: tablet on the CPL checkride?

Post by praveen4143 » Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:07 am

If you look at the CPL flight test guide it says you can use it for all exercises, including flight planning, except for 23.D. Diversions.
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marakii
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Re: tablet on the CPL checkride?

Post by marakii » Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:16 am

Have heard a student used it for the cross country and did most of the planning on it and the examiner in flight told him “oops the battery died on it, now what?”
Student lost all focus and the flight test was given a fail and came back, so don’t rely on apps or gps in the plane please, good old log form, e6b and the maps because those don’t breakdown.
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Re: tablet on the CPL checkride?

Post by 5x5 » Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:22 am

Like any part of an airplane, electronics whether mounted or portable, can fail. You need to have a plan for when that happens because you still need to get back on the ground safely. It's becoming a bit disturbing the number of student and recreational pilots out there that are becoming very reliant on ForeFlight (or whatever other system) for their prep and flight guidance. I know of a couple of instances recently where there was real difficulty doing something as simple as filing a flight plan when the iPad didn't work or was forgotten. And navigation was a real challenge for another when the iPad quit during the flight and the pilot was essentially lost until getting guidance from ATC. I also know of a local pilot who simply won't go on a night flight without it because he isn't capable of navigating at night without the glowing screen.
I also regularly see pilots planning and going on longer trips into unfamiliar airspace with minimal time spent preparing since the iPad has all the info and will show them the way. That's great for the general stimulation of general aviation but puts many people into a risky scenario should their automation fail.

I do use ForeFlight myself regularly (interspersed with paper only flights without it on board) and am pleased and amazed at the features and functionality it provides but am concerned at the reliance on it many pilots are developing. All automation has some aspect of that, but as a pilot in a small aircraft without built in redundancy and other support systems you have to be able to quickly and reasonably be able to revert to manual processes to safely complete the flight if the automation fails. I think that all PPL and most CPL training should be done without the use of such aids to establish a solid base to fall back on.

Lots of people will think I'm just jumping at shadows and many will likely consider my comments as coming from a guy born in the days of the dinosaurs, but when the automation fails those are the days you're suddenly flying in and you better be prepared and able to handle it.
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Re: tablet on the CPL checkride?

Post by marakii » Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:03 am

5x5 wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:22 am
Like any part of an airplane, electronics whether mounted or portable, can fail. You need to have a plan for when that happens because you still need to get back on the ground safely. It's becoming a bit disturbing the number of student and recreational pilots out there that are becoming very reliant on ForeFlight (or whatever other system) for their prep and flight guidance. I know of a couple of instances recently where there was real difficulty doing something as simple as filing a flight plan when the iPad didn't work or was forgotten. And navigation was a real challenge for another when the iPad quit during the flight and the pilot was essentially lost until getting guidance from ATC. I also know of a local pilot who simply won't go on a night flight without it because he isn't capable of navigating at night without the glowing screen.
I also regularly see pilots planning and going on longer trips into unfamiliar airspace with minimal time spent preparing since the iPad has all the info and will show them the way. That's great for the general stimulation of general aviation but puts many people into a risky scenario should their automation fail.

I do use ForeFlight myself regularly (interspersed with paper only flights without it on board) and am pleased and amazed at the features and functionality it provides but am concerned at the reliance on it many pilots are developing. All automation has some aspect of that, but as a pilot in a small aircraft without built in redundancy and other support systems you have to be able to quickly and reasonably be able to revert to manual processes to safely complete the flight if the automation fails. I think that all PPL and most CPL training should be done without the use of such aids to establish a solid base to fall back on.

Lots of people will think I'm just jumping at shadows and many will likely consider my comments as coming from a guy born in the days of the dinosaurs, but when the automation fails those are the days you're suddenly flying in and you better be prepared and able to handle it.
I agree totally , it is scary to hear from students that they have foreflight or gps and they go flying in the blue yonder and what happens if it fails! One student panicked on the radio because his ipad failed and was totally lost and like you said, ATC guided them to safety.
I learned in the days of no gps or foreflight or ipads so learning and using the old way and having these great features as a secondary means work great together but you have to know the map and paper method way.
my two cents
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Re: tablet on the CPL checkride?

Post by ant_321 » Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:25 am

I find it surprising that any flight instructor would allow students to use an iPad as a crutch. If I was still an instructor I simply wouldn't allow it onboard. You will be spending the rest of your flying career, either privately or commercially, staring at computer generated images. Use the opportunity given in your training to learn the basics so you have something to fall back on.

I know everyone is eager to start playing airline pilot as soon as they can but it is vital to get a good foundation before you get to the boring life of an airline pilot. I once flew with a relatively experienced fo on a 1900. In the descent the gps failed and we had to do a raw data ndb approach. The look in his eyes was pure terror. Turns out he went to one of those fancy flight colleges and all his ifr was taught in a fancy glass cockpit. Also, FWIW I have also flown a 737-800 raw data for 2 hours of a flight after the fmc's died. It really isn't a big deal but if you don't have a decent foundation it would cause much more stress than is necessary.
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Re: tablet on the CPL checkride?

Post by rookiepilot » Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:29 pm

Have to agree. Too many pilots can't do an approach without a pink line.

It's a fabulous exercise occasionally, for the Rec pilot, do a at least a 100 nm Day CC at 1000 agl or so (check the chart for towers!), in good vis. Maybe higher for sure, if done at night.

Do it without GPS, DR with a time log or pencil mark the map with checkpoints ETA's and actual times. That stuff still works! It's amazing how accurate one can be to a checkpoint, to the minute.
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Re: tablet on the CPL checkride?

Post by photofly » Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:55 pm

ant_321 wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:25 am
I find it surprising that any flight instructor would allow students to use an iPad as a crutch. If I was still an instructor I simply wouldn't allow it onboard. You will be spending the rest of your flying career, either privately or commercially, staring at computer generated images. Use the opportunity given in your training to learn the basics so you have something to fall back on.
I have to ask. Do you carry a set of VNCs for your route in the cockpit of your 737, so you too “have something to fall back on”?
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Re: tablet on the CPL checkride?

Post by AuxBatOn » Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:38 pm

photofly wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:55 pm
ant_321 wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:25 am
I find it surprising that any flight instructor would allow students to use an iPad as a crutch. If I was still an instructor I simply wouldn't allow it onboard. You will be spending the rest of your flying career, either privately or commercially, staring at computer generated images. Use the opportunity given in your training to learn the basics so you have something to fall back on.
I have to ask. Do you carry a set of VNCs for your route in the cockpit of your 737, so you too “have something to fall back on”?
I think you’ll agree there are far more layers of redundency in a 737 than in a Cessna 172.
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Re: tablet on the CPL checkride?

Post by photofly » Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:00 pm

I don’t know or care. I just want some reassurance that the lecturing asshole isn’t a hypocritical lecturing asshole.
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Re: tablet on the CPL checkride?

Post by ant_321 » Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:40 pm

photofly wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:55 pm
ant_321 wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:25 am
I find it surprising that any flight instructor would allow students to use an iPad as a crutch. If I was still an instructor I simply wouldn't allow it onboard. You will be spending the rest of your flying career, either privately or commercially, staring at computer generated images. Use the opportunity given in your training to learn the basics so you have something to fall back on.
I have to ask. Do you carry a set of VNCs for your route in the cockpit of your 737, so you too “have something to fall back on”?
If I went VFR I would. Thats not the point I'm trying to make though. Anyone can follow a purple triangle across a digital VNC on a tablet. Why not use the time during your training to learn things the manual way? You'll have the next 45 years to do things the lazy way.
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Re: tablet on the CPL checkride?

Post by lhalliday » Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:43 pm

When I flew yesterday (Langley - Campbell River - Qualicum Beach - Langley) I planned the flight with ForeFlight then actually flew it by looking out the window and referring to the charts in my lap. On a day like yesterday it was the only way to fly!
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...laura
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Re: tablet on the CPL checkride?

Post by ant_321 » Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:46 pm

photofly wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:00 pm
I don’t know or care. I just want some reassurance that the lecturing asshole isn’t a hypocritical lecturing asshole.
I see the keyboard warriors are out. If believing new pilots should be taught in a way that doesn't make them reliant on automation and technology that does all the thinking for you makes one an asshole, then I guess I am an asshole. Maybe we should just teach student pilots to take off and land. Get to 400' and engage the autopilot until the flare.
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Re: tablet on the CPL checkride?

Post by photofly » Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:48 pm

Nobody learns to do long division on paper any more, and nobody learns joined-up handwriting, either. When was the last time you looked up a telephone number in a paper telephone directory? Dude: you have 45 years to do the lazy thing and listen to Spotify, I insist that you keep any music to which you want to listen on quarter-inch open reel tape. Just so you can prove to me you have something to fall back on.

I haven't bought a paper chart in six years. In ten years’ time, NavCanada isn't even going to publish a VNC.

Outside of the flight training environment, the only people who fly somewhere they actually want to be without at least three GPS receivers on board in some form are the aviation equivalent of steam locomotive enthusiasts. Harmless, and with lovely beards, but they're weird, and we definitely don't want them making any decisions that affect the rest of us.

Explain to me, one more time, please, why we spend SO MANY HOURS training people with fetish-level historical navigation techniques that nobody - not one single solitary soul - is ever going to use to get from A to B, once they've passed their flight tests, and ZERO hours training people to use the technology that they ARE actually going to use. Because I just don't get it.
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Re: tablet on the CPL checkride?

Post by ant_321 » Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:12 pm

I think we'll agree to disagree on this one. I believe in having back ups for backups. Whether it be with technology or skill. For example, for us approach plates are normally used from an iPad, to back that up we have a second iPad, to back that up we have a paper copy, to back that up we can talk to dispatch and get them to brief the approach to us via radio.

You have passed your training and have shown competency in navigating VFR. Sure fill your boots and do it the easy way. The last time I flew VFR I pressed direct on a GPS and went for it. That is not the point though. Being able to navigate the "old school" way is a valuable skill that you may have to fall back on.
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Re: tablet on the CPL checkride?

Post by photofly » Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:19 pm

ant_321 wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:12 pm
The last time I flew VFR I pressed direct on a GPS and went for it. That is not the point though.
It completely *is* the point. We should be training people for what they actually are going to do. Not for what they might have had to do in the 1950s.

I can see some, limited, value, in training people to divert using a chart. But this "track line, 10 degree drift lines, timing between checkpoints, opening-closing-angle" stuff is, in the modern world, a complete waste of time. Nobody, ever, ever, does that, after their CPL flight test. Not once. You know perfectly well that's true. Not even when the GPS fails. Not you, and not anyone. Whether the GPS fails in flight, or on the ground. So why are we spending so many hours training on all that stuff? Why?
Being able to navigate the "old school" way is a valuable skill that you may have to fall back on.
Nope. There is no set of circumstances under which I will ever need to draw 10 degree drift lines on a chart, in order to get from A to B. The only reason anyone ever draws 10 degree drift lines on a chart these days is to teach someone else how to draw 10 degree drift lines. This circle-jerk is, in fact, the height of idiocy - a complete waste of everyone's time, both instructor and student.

Furthermore, unless you actually carry VFR charts on your flights, you're not going to be able to use those pencil and chart skills that you claim to value. I ask again: do you carry VNC charts in your Boeing?
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Kirk: This is a dangerous mission. Likely, one of us will die. The landing party will be me, Spock, McCoy, and Ensign Ricky.
Ensign Ricky: Aw, crap.

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Re: tablet on the CPL checkride?

Post by ant_321 » Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:31 pm

photofly wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:19 pm
ant_321 wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:12 pm
The last time I flew VFR I pressed direct on a GPS and went for it. That is not the point though.
It completely *is* the point. We should be training people for what they actually are going to do.
I can see some, limited, value, in training people to divert using a chart. But this track line, 10 degree drift lines, checkpoints, opening-closing-angle stuff is, in the modern world, pure bullshit. Nobody, ever, ever, does that, after their CPL flight test. Not once. You know perfectly well that's true. Not even when the GPS fails. So why are we spending so many hours training on it?
Being able to navigate the "old school" way is a valuable skill that you may have to fall back on.
Unless you actually carry VFR charts on your flights, you're not going to be able to use those pencil and chart skills that you claim to value. I ask again: do you carry VNC charts in your Boeing?
I answer again, If I was VFR I would.

I guess I may have not been clear on my issue with using iPad's or other tablets. It's not so much the issue with using it as a digital map, (although I think the lack of redundancy isn't a good idea if you are somewhere you aren't very familiar with) it's the point that students are using this sort of thing as a crutch. And if you think students are being good boys and girls and not using the GPS function I think you are wrong. I will agree with you that the focus of map work to pass the ride is quite impractical. You won't change my mind that map to ground navigation is a very valuable skill for a VFR pilot. If I hired someone to fly an aircraft VFR, I would expect them to be able to safely finish the mission if the GPS crapped the bed half way though. Also, getting a CPL in Canada is pretty darn easy. Do we really need to make things easier?
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Re: tablet on the CPL checkride?

Post by 5x5 » Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:43 pm

Well Photofly, if it makes you feel better to denigrate others because they don't agree with you, have fun. I still believe that the skills and ability to form a mental picture of your relationship in an airplane to the world around it is of value and it's called situational awareness. Try it, you may like it. (PS: It's far better than flying the video game with the little airplane on the pretty pink line.) And not everyone gets a pilot licence only to fly a Boeing.

You may well get through a lifetime of flying with your 3 GPS equipped airplane, but heaven forbid you ever experience the time when maybe you don't have three and the one you do have fails or runs out of power. We are all entitled to our own opinions and our own value judgements and just because someone has one different from yours doesn't make them a hypocrite. Just like you're not necessarily an asshole because your opinion is wrong as far as I'm concerned.
photofly wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:48 pm
Nobody learns to do long division on paper any more,
And just because technology is advancing doesn't make it good or right. As far as calculators replacing math skills, you may be really happy that the cashier at Tim's head explodes when the bill is $3.22 and you give them two twoonies and just as they're counting the change you throw them a quarter and say "just give me a loonie". "But the cash register tells me to give you 72 cents." I think it's sad.
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Re: tablet on the CPL checkride?

Post by photofly » Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:54 pm

just because someone has one different from yours doesn't make them a hypocrite.
Indeed. What makes someone a hypocrite is flying their Boeing 737, with all the automation that it brings, and then lecturing everyone else about how they should navigate from a chart. That they themselves don't carry.

Did you know that making change from $4 for $3.22 doesn't involve long division?
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Kirk: This is a dangerous mission. Likely, one of us will die. The landing party will be me, Spock, McCoy, and Ensign Ricky.
Ensign Ricky: Aw, crap.

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Re: tablet on the CPL checkride?

Post by Big Pistons Forever » Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:54 pm

The challenge in flight training is to make sure that students have the skill to do a TLAR ( That Looks About A Right) check when the magic box gives you a line to follow or presents a number.

So for example a mentor flight I recently made with a low time pilot was an out and back trip for lunch. The track and distance out was 332 and 76 miles. When he entered the return leg in the GPS it said the the track home was 079 and the distance was 136 miles. I asked what heading we were going to fly and he said 079, so I said if The track out was 332 what should the track home be ? At that point he got what I was saying and realized that 079 failed a TLAR check plus the distance was wrong, and determined he had entered the wrong waypoint as a destination.

However to get good at determining “ That Looks About Right” you have to understand the basics. So yes working through the nav log and drawing pencil lines is IMO an important part of basic nav instruction.

However what also needs to happen is some instruction on how to use the technology in an informed way rather than just pretending it doesn’t exist.

BTW I did have ForeFlight fail inflight last summer after my i-pad failed ( it shut down after over heating), I did what any sensible pilot would do, I opened the ForeFlight app on my phone and carried on....
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Re: tablet on the CPL checkride?

Post by photofly » Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:58 pm

>>3 GPS equipped airplane

I don't have one of those. I do have one gps, one iPad, one phone. You can even get a GPS on your backup VHF radio, if you're really paranoid. Then you have four.
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Ensign Ricky: Aw, crap.

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Re: tablet on the CPL checkride?

Post by ant_321 » Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:11 pm

photofly wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:54 pm
just because someone has one different from yours doesn't make them a hypocrite.
Indeed. What makes someone a hypocrite is flying their Boeing 737, with all the automation that it brings, and then lecturing everyone else about how they should navigate from a chart. That they themselves don't carry.
But I did carry it when it made sense, i.e. when I was flying aircraft VFR. A VFR chart isn't going to be much use at 38,000', Just like an IFR chart is going to be useless in a J3. So yes, I do carry the charts appropriate to the flight at hand.
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Re: tablet on the CPL checkride?

Post by photofly » Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:16 pm

So, you have your magenta line, in your boeing, and when you don't want to follow a magenta line, you can fly a J3 and use charts. Lucky you, to have the choice.

What about those of us who just want to get from A to B as quickly and efficiently as possible, and don't have a Boeing in which to do it. When flying VFR is a matter of transport, and not a fun day out, it's perfectly appropriate to follow a pink line on an iPad. If that's *all* you do, then it's perfectly appropriate never to navigate from a chart, and always to follow a pink line on an iPad.
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Kirk: This is a dangerous mission. Likely, one of us will die. The landing party will be me, Spock, McCoy, and Ensign Ricky.
Ensign Ricky: Aw, crap.

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