tablet on the CPL checkride?

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ant_321
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Re: tablet on the CPL checkride?

#26 Post by ant_321 » Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:31 pm

ok, you're obviously just looking for a fight. I think its fine to fly using a GPS or any other nav aid as long as you are able to revert back to reading a chart if needed. If you never learn that skill in your flight training how are you going to be able to do that? I also stand by my statement that it is already easy enough to get a CPL in Canada. We don't need to make it easier.
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Re: tablet on the CPL checkride?

#27 Post by photofly » Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:39 pm

ant_321 wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:31 pm
ok, you're obviously just looking for a fight. I think its fine to fly using a GPS or any other nav aid as long as you are able to revert back to reading a chart if needed. If you never learn that skill in your flight training how are you going to be able to do that?
Reverting back to a chart would be a sensible skill to teach, and to test. I would fully support doing so. But that isn't what we teach or test. We teach people to plan an entire trip using an E6B, a ruler and a paper chart. We teach them to draw drift lines, compile a table of checkpoints, calculate an estimated ground speed, a wind correction angle and how to do opening-closing or double-angle track corrections. Then we test it.

NONE of that applies to reverting back to reading a chart if a GPS goes u/s during a flight.

The argument that we should spend hours in the air and hours on the ground teaching a useless skill just to make a test more difficult is so far beyond stupid it's hard to fathom. If "making the test harder" were a sensible criterion for what to include I vote we teach knitting and throw in making a pair of gloves in the Pilot Examiner's size as one exercise. It would be more fun and at least you'd have a pair of gloves to show for every test pass.
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Re: tablet on the CPL checkride?

#28 Post by justwork » Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:44 pm

photofly wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:16 pm
So, you have your magenta line, in your boeing, and when you don't want to follow a magenta line, you can fly a J3 and use charts. Lucky you, to have the choice.

What about those of us who just want to get from A to B as quickly and efficiently as possible, and don't have a Boeing in which to do it. When flying VFR is a matter of transport, and not a fun day out, it's perfectly appropriate to follow a pink line on an iPad. If that's *all* you do, then it's perfectly appropriate never to navigate from a chart, and always to follow a pink line on an iPad.
I get it, short flight for some fun use the iPad. I guess it's crazy now to think I was taught to fly before iPads, and that was only 15 years ago. Looking back at what I was taught then, and what I know now, I would agree that students should be taught how to properly flight plan "old school" using a paper chart. Reason being, during flight training (especially for a ppl) students don't get far from home ever. So if a student is learning how to flight plan in their backyard using an iPad or something similar, what happens when they decided to really venture out and that battery dies? Do PPL pilots carry two iPads? Sure a power bank comes in handy, but what if the screen blanks out (my iPhone 7 just did this for no reason)? What if you're half way between Vancouver and Calgary, happily following your iPad and it takes a dump someplace over the rockies I'd sure like to know how to properly read a chart. That's just me though. I'm entitled to my opinion and I respect that you are too - and our opinions are allowed to differ. I also have my kids learning such out dated thing like cursive writing, navigating the woods with a compass, and yes - even long division, not all of that is useful to everyone but we think it's really cool. I guess you can put it down as good to know but not need to know... Until you need it.
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Re: tablet on the CPL checkride?

#29 Post by C-GGGQ » Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:59 am

photofly wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:39 pm
ant_321 wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:31 pm
ok, you're obviously just looking for a fight. I think its fine to fly using a GPS or any other nav aid as long as you are able to revert back to reading a chart if needed. If you never learn that skill in your flight training how are you going to be able to do that?
Reverting back to a chart would be a sensible skill to teach, and to test. I would fully support doing so. But that isn't what we teach or test. We teach people to plan an entire trip using an E6B, a ruler and a paper chart. We teach them to draw drift lines, compile a table of checkpoints, calculate an estimated ground speed, a wind correction angle and how to do opening-closing or double-angle track corrections. Then we test it.

NONE of that applies to reverting back to reading a chart if a GPS goes u/s during a flight.
You literally do need all those BASIC skills to revert back to the map if your GPS fails.I use android. No foreflight or any other apps for that matter. I use a GPS in my truck but also carry a motor carriers road atlas as backup. Honestly hearing that schools are teaching all iPad planning etc scares me because I know how much I have forgotten since I stopped flying 6 years ago. (In the process of re-certifying now) how much worse off are they if they aren't even learning basic map skills?
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Re: tablet on the CPL checkride?

#30 Post by photofly » Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:32 am

Right.... the GPS fails en-route in your aircraft, so you’re going to unfold your plotting table, spread out the three VNC charts needed to cover your route, get out your protractor, and your quarter mil ruler ... and start drawing straight lines?

You must fly much grander airplanes than most of us.
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Re: tablet on the CPL checkride?

#31 Post by C-GGGQ » Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:31 am

No, I'm going to unfold my map to my last known location and use my knowledge of how to do those mentioned things in my head mentally, much like I can still do long division and many imperial to metric conversions in my head. But I wouldn't be able to do that without the underlying knowledge which you seem to think is worthless.
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Re: tablet on the CPL checkride?

#32 Post by AirFrame » Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:57 am

Big Pistons Forever wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:54 pm
So for example a mentor flight I recently made with a low time pilot was an out and back trip for lunch. The track and distance out was 332 and 76 miles. When he entered the return leg in the GPS it said the the track home was 079 and the distance was 136 miles. I asked what heading we were going to fly and he said 079, so I said if The track out was 332 what should the track home be ? At that point he got what I was saying and realized that 079 failed a TLAR check plus the distance was wrong, and determined he had entered the wrong waypoint as a destination.
This might highlight a failure in training to use the tools he has. If it was indeed an out-and-back flight (same route just reciprocal headings), then the correct way to avoid errors would have been to use the GPS' "reverse" or "invert route" function to reverse the route for you. No need to enter the home waypoint again. And once the route is reversed, you can pan/zoom along the route and check that it's correct.
BTW I did have ForeFlight fail inflight last summer after my i-pad failed ( it shut down after over heating), I did what any sensible pilot would do, I opened the ForeFlight app on my phone and carried on....
I realized the other day that I had 5 GPS's with me while flying... Garmin Aera in the panel, Android Tablet with FltPlanGo, and Android Phone with FltPlanGo, all three of those give me VNC/VTA to navigate with. Also, my Garmin watch, and my Stratux ADSB receiver, which would give me position. For navigation, i'd need the mapping capability of either my phone or tablet to be useful. That leaves quintuple redundancy on a position fix, triple redundancy on mapping. The only other failure point would be the GPS network itself... But the two Android devices and the Stratux all receive GLONASS as well, so there's even some redundancy there.
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Re: tablet on the CPL checkride?

#33 Post by trey kule » Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:36 am

What if....What if! OMG my GPS or ipad fails.....certain death is moments away!!
Unless I am a super pilot...then shucks...just no biggie. Pulled old school nav gear out of my moose hide flight bag, did a sun shot, and calculated our way precisely to the destination.

Not one person here has mentioned that if avionics go on vacation on a vfr flight, you just hold your present heading until your eta...unless some big wind changes all will be well. Funny, no one mentioned that. But I guess that would require our testee to be able to hold a heading and work through the nav issues.

The flight training regime has done its level best to get rid of common sense and thinking, substituting check lists, and rote procedures instead. Ok if a new CPL jumps to a major where those are quality attributes of a new FO.

IFR...GPS is backed up by other nav equip. Lose it all and yes, you might have an emergency.

Is it a good idea to be able to fly a VFR flight (including on a flight test). I think so. But there has to be some common sense applied in terms of practical navigation.

One Should be able to plan and do a flight without an ipad. But as someone who learned to fly in the sixties, all those fancy new devices make life so much easier.
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Re: tablet on the CPL checkride?

#34 Post by Spokes » Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:49 pm

marakii wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:16 am
Have heard a student used it for the cross country and did most of the planning on it and the examiner in flight told him “oops the battery died on it, now what?”
Student lost all focus and the flight test was given a fail and came back, so don’t rely on apps or gps in the plane please, good old log form, e6b and the maps because those don’t breakdown.
The appropriate response would be to plug in your backup battery.
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Re: tablet on the CPL checkride?

#35 Post by justwork » Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:19 pm

trey kule wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:36 am

Not one person here has mentioned that if avionics go on vacation on a vfr flight, you just hold your present heading until your eta...unless some big wind changes all will be well. Funny, no one mentioned that. But I guess that would require our testee to be able to hold a heading and work through the nav issues.

The flight training regime has done its level best to get rid of common sense and thinking, substituting check lists, and rote procedures instead. Ok if a new CPL jumps to a major where those are quality attributes of a new FO.

IFR...GPS is backed up by other nav equip. Lose it all and yes, you might have an emergency.

Is it a good idea to be able to fly a VFR flight (including on a flight test). I think so. But there has to be some common sense applied in terms of practical navigation.
I learned to fly in 2004 and flew a lot of VFR flights up to about 2008, been ifr since. VFR through the mountains, often, and I can tell you that if you were not taught to read a map, holding your heading will make you a statistic.

There are people only a few years younger than me who have relied on GPS for all driving navigation. So a lot of people learning to fly now may have never used a paper map in their life. Not being taught navigation techniques with a map would be a mistake in my opinion. It’s not uncommon for a battery to die or a device to quit when you need it the most. Hell, my phones at %20 battery now.
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Re: tablet on the CPL checkride?

#36 Post by trey kule » Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:52 pm

learned to fly in 2004 and flew a lot of VFR flights up to about 2008, been ifr since. VFR through the mountains, often, and I can tell you that if you were not taught to read a map, holding your heading will make you a statistic.
Ah yes. The exception to the rule. And your comment makes my point about common sense. Most VFR pilots going through the mountains, unless they are very familiar with the area and weather either follow the highway, or at least the published VFR routes. The GPS is not their primary navigation instrument...Their eyes are. Of course that does not apply to pilots flying out of a base daily who quickly learnlocal topography and weather.


But we were talking about a CPL checkride. No mention of mountains but it was good to bring that up..
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