Samra and Saron validity question

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andy_mtl
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Samra and Saron validity question

Post by andy_mtl »

Hello !
I have been flying with my iatra and cpl the last couple years and just finished my AA .
During the application process i figured i miss 8 h night xc pic.

Now , i can do these hours picus at my job, but would take some time.
Or i can go rent a 152 but thats $$$.

I was wondering, do the Samra and Saron exam get locked in after a ppc like the iatra does? Or do they expire 24 months after writing them?

Thank you for any imputs.
Andy
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EasyTarget
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Re: Samra and Saron validity question

Post by EasyTarget »

In regards to the validity question, the following is from the Transport Canada Study Guide for ATPL:
"Validity Period
Examinations that are required for the issuance of a permit or licence or for the endorsement of a permit or licence with a rating shall be completed during the 24-month period immediately preceding the date of the application for the permit, licence or rating."
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455tt
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Re: Samra and Saron validity question

Post by 455tt »

andy_mtl wrote: Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:50 pm I was wondering, do the Samra and Saron exam get locked in after a ppc like the iatra does?
Yes they do.

If you wrote the IATRA so as to qualify for your type rating, the IATRA locks in. If you wrote the SARON and SAMRA to qualify for your type rating, then, similarly, the SARON and SAMRA will lock in.

See CARs 400.03 (2):

"400.03 (1) Subject to subsection (3), written examinations, including all sections of a sectionalized examination, that are required for the issuance of a permit or licence or for the endorsement of a permit or licence with a rating shall be completed during the 24-month period preceding the date of the application for the permit, licence or rating.

(2) Subsection (1) does not apply in respect of examinations that are required for the issuance of

(a) a student pilot permit; or

(b) an airline transport pilot licence if examinations were previously written

(i) for the endorsement of a type rating, a mark of 70 per cent or higher was obtained on the examination and the type rating was issued;

(ii) for the issuance of the former senior commercial pilot licence, a mark of 70 per cent or higher was obtained on the examination and the senior commercial pilot licence was issued; or

(iii) for the issuance of an airline transport pilot licence — aeroplane, an airline transport pilot licence — aeroplane integrated course was successfully completed during the 5-year period preceding the date of the application for the licence and a course completion certificate was issued."

So in your case you would write the SARON and SAMRA, then when you eventually get a new type rating on a different aeroplane, you would use this fact to say your SARON and SAMRA exams lock in and the 24 month rule does not apply, based on CARs 400.03 (2). Your argument would be that, if you can do this for the IATRA, they why not for the SARON/SAMRA. I assume you probably have never even heard of a Senior Commercial licence, and I also assume that you did not complete an integrated ATPL course so these other exemptions would not apply.
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andy_mtl
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Re: Samra and Saron validity question

Post by andy_mtl »

455tt

Yeah its a bit if a grey area I called the pacific office for tc licensing ( as the mtl one was closed already) and they were very confused on this topic. They gave me an email to ask. So I did but no reply yet
I finished both samra and saron. I realized i missed 8 h when i dropped my logbook this am. But a clerk took it not the person in charge of scrutinizing it. So they also missed that part.


So i guess next month when i re new my dh8 ppc i wont be able to use it to lock in my s and s exams. But i d have to use them on a new type thats what you re saying?

Thanks.
Andy
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455tt
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Re: Samra and Saron validity question

Post by 455tt »

Good idea to explain your situation to TC so let's wait and see what TC says applies in your circumstances. Please let us know their response - this will be interesting.

By the way and I am sure I am stating the obvious but you don't need an individual aeroplane type rating (2 crew) to qualify for an ATPL. Just 1,500 hours, 250 hours PIC, 100 hours night PIC, pass SARON/SAMRA, group 1 multi IFR etc.

You just sat the ATPL's correct? Like just a few days or weeks ago? So you only have a little bit of stray time here and there to complete for your ATPL and you have 24 months to do this, which can be suspended if you do another type rating so you should not be in any difficulty here. Or I am missing something?
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Re: Samra and Saron validity question

Post by andy_mtl »

Yes i just finished them , its just to clarify the validity of the exams as such once you get a tr.
I miss 8h night cross country pic. Im sure either picus or i ll rent a cessna and get them done quickly.

Andy
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455tt
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Re: Samra and Saron validity question

Post by 455tt »

OK so you will never have to sit the IATRA again.

And, if you can get that stray missing time for the ATPL taken care of in the next 24 months, and you get your ATPL, you will hold the ATPL as long as you keep it current, and you won't ever have to sit the SARON/SAMRA again.

If you can't get that stray missing time for the ATPL taken care of in the next 24 months, or beyond the 24 months, but do you get another type rating, on a different 2 crew type aeroplane than the DH8, then you should still be able to make the case the 24 month requirement is suspended based on CARs 400.03 (2) since you will base the new type rating qualification on your SARON/SAMRA results and insert this onto the application for licence, rating or endorsement TP form.

So it should all be good for you in the end.

But let's see what TC has to say.

Best wishes,

TT
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bbingham
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Re: Samra and Saron validity question

Post by bbingham »

For what it's worth, TC told me that your ATPL exams don't lock in if you've previously written the IATRA. I wound up having to rewrite mine after I had gone past the 24 month mark, even with doing a PPC on a two crew aircraft.
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455tt
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Re: Samra and Saron validity question

Post by 455tt »

bbingham:

Interesting.

OK - just so I understand - you wrote the IATRA, then you wrote the SARON/SAMRA, then 24 months lapses from writing all of these, then you obtain your 2-crew type rating, then you apply for the ATPL but you are forced to re-write the SARON/SAMRA? Please correct me if I am missing something here.

You only completed one 2-crew type rating for one specific type, correct?

Can you recall, when you applied for your type rating and submitted the paperwork, did you include your IATRA test results, did you include your SARON/SAMRA test results, or did you include all of these?

Just trying to figure out how TC is squaring all of this with CARs 400.03 (2).
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Stayfly121
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Re: Samra and Saron validity question

Post by Stayfly121 »

Looking for some clarification in regards to the validity of the SARON/SAMRA . My exams expire end of 2022. I've been PPCed in the past. I've never been type rated. I'm wondering if my exams will be "locked in" and valid after the 2022 expiry date assuming I successfully obtain my first type rating before that. Also how long will they be valid for assuming I consistently have the type rating renewed every 6 months.

Thank you.
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780Pilot
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Re: Samra and Saron validity question

Post by 780Pilot »

My understanding of it is you need to have applied for your ATPL 2 years after whichever exam you passed first (not including the INRAT)
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