Self study hours ppl

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rotorspeed
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Self study hours ppl

Post by rotorspeed » Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:13 pm

Does anyone know how specific you have to be regarding self study hours for ppl ground school
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455tt
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Re: Self study hours ppl

Post by 455tt » Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:55 pm

I would think that just the major subject divisions should be fine i.e. CARs 421.26 states the PPL ground school is to be as follows:

"An applicant shall have:

(a) completed a minimum of 40 hours private pilot aeroplane ground school instruction on the following subjects:
(i) Canadian Aviation Regulations,
(ii) Aerodynamics and Theory of Flight,
(iii) Meteorology,
(iv) Airframes, Engines and Systems,
(v) Flight Instruments,
(vi) Radio and Electronic Theory,
(vii) Navigation,
(viii) Flight Operations,
(ix) Licensing Requirements, and
(x) Human Factors, including pilot decision-making;"

So you would use these major divisions and not the precise particular subjects within them. For example, if you studied the CARs governing "right of way" and "circuit procedures" you would just enter "CARs" along with the duration of time and date and not the specific CARs numbers you studied. Or if you studied thunderstorms and fronts you would just enter "Meteorology" etc.

Be sure of course that your self study ground school entries are kept current and entered directly into your official PTR along with both your signature and your instructor's signature.

This should be OK but let's wait and see if anyone has any different/further recommendations.
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rotorspeed
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Re: Self study hours ppl

Post by rotorspeed » Sat Jun 23, 2018 11:35 am

I actually have the ground school hours but the school is no longer around. TC is trying to find records but no go so far
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455tt
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Re: Self study hours ppl

Post by 455tt » Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:56 pm

So what did the school do with your PTR? When a school folds they typically return the PTR's to their students.
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rotorspeed
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Re: Self study hours ppl

Post by rotorspeed » Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:49 pm

I had not flown in many years so I was out of contact with them and hadnt finished my ppl
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455tt
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Re: Self study hours ppl

Post by 455tt » Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:06 pm

OK well in that case honestly to get up to date I recommend that you have a fresh start and complete a full PPL ground school. It is only 40 hours and as long as you get the schools' approval, you can count self study towards the 40 hours! Just be sure to keep track of everything in your new PTR. But you will have to work with a school. Is there a local FTU close to you?
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rotorspeed
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Re: Self study hours ppl

Post by rotorspeed » Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:23 pm

Yed
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455tt
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Re: Self study hours ppl

Post by 455tt » Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:33 pm

Great. So why not get in touch with them and I am sure they will help you get this taken care of and allow you to apply some self study time.

Let us know how it all works out and if there is anything else please feel free to ask us!

Best regards,

TT
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rotorspeed
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Re: Self study hours ppl

Post by rotorspeed » Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:03 pm

Thank you for the help. They know about it I have easily studied 40hrs since my ground school I just hadnt documented all of it and am not sure how I go about it.
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Re: Self study hours ppl

Post by photofly » Sun Jun 24, 2018 4:35 am

Someone (ok, I’ll do it) needs to point out that the licensing requirment for a PPL isn’t 40 hours of whatever you want, it’s 40 hours of ground school, which itself is defined in the CARs:

“ground school instruction means classroom-type instruction generally given to one or more persons and covering an organized program of lectures, homework or self-paced study that adheres to an approved training program; (instruction théorique au sol)”


So someone (NOT you) has to have organized and programmed this self-paced study. That is, if you’re doing the studying on your own, the ONlY bit that you get to pick is the pace; the materials have to be provided by someone else and that person must be qualified to give ground training. And the whole training programme has to be approved.

Only If those conditions are met does what you’ve done count as ground school, and if they are then knowing how to record the study won’t be a problem.
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Re: Self study hours ppl

Post by 455tt » Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:11 am

Yes good point - of course hooking up with an FTU will ensure everything will be in order. At a minimum self study based on the current Study and Reference guide (the "approved curriculum") and a good textbook/exam guide and/or online course acceptable to the school CFI with entries kept current in the PTR should do the trick.
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photofly
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Re: Self study hours ppl

Post by photofly » Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:02 am

Oh my goodness. You didn’t understand anything I wrote, did you?
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Ensign Ricky: Aw, crap.

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Re: Self study hours ppl

Post by 455tt » Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:55 am

Sure I did understand you Photofly - did you understand me - since the OP says he/she has already hooked up with an FTU whatever self study he does will certainly be fully in compliance with the regs.

No need to get nasty.
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photofly
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Re: Self study hours ppl

Post by photofly » Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:03 am

I can hook up with who I like, and study what I like but unless the self study is assigned y an instructor as part of a program it doesn’t count.

If the FTU takes their responsibilities seriously, him sitting down with a syllabus and deciding him/herself what books to study doesn’t meet the requirements.

It’s a lot of work to set up a ground school program, and more then likely the FTU is going to say “hey, come and attend our already-set up program and pay us the $300 for the privilege and stop trying to cheap out with some half-assed you-made-it-up-in-the-bath-and-you-want-us-to-sign-off-on-it bs for free”.
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Kirk: This is a dangerous mission. Likely, one of us will die. The landing party will be me, Spock, McCoy, and Ensign Ricky.
Ensign Ricky: Aw, crap.

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Re: Self study hours ppl

Post by Aviatard » Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:15 am

455tt wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:55 am
No need to get nasty.
No part of that post struck me as nasty. Just disagreeing with you doesn’t make it so.
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Re: Self study hours ppl

Post by 455tt » Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:14 pm

Hi Aviatard!

How about this part, does it strike you as nasty:

"stop trying to cheap out with some half-assed you-made-it-up-in-the-bath-and-you-want-us-to-sign-off-on-it bs for free”."

Meets the test for nastiness for me (along with the "Oh my goodness. You didn’t understand anything I wrote, did you?" comment.)

I'd also call these comments patronizing. Condescending and rude as well.

I'd have some real issues as a customer if a flight school (or any other business) ever spoke to me like this.

But that's just me - I'm a stickler for good manners and professionalism, I suppose.
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Re: Self study hours ppl

Post by photofly » Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:20 pm

I'd have some real issues as a customer if a flight school (or any other business) ever spoke to me like this.
When you start paying me to respond to your dumb-ass posts, I’ll be polite.

Stop advising someone that they can make up their own groundschool. They can’t. Even if they hook up with the minister, the deputy minister, and the prime minister.

But that’s just me, I’m just a stickler for accurate advice.
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Kirk: This is a dangerous mission. Likely, one of us will die. The landing party will be me, Spock, McCoy, and Ensign Ricky.
Ensign Ricky: Aw, crap.

rotorspeed
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Re: Self study hours ppl

Post by rotorspeed » Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:37 pm

Ok I understood if you document the times and 40hrs of study each of the 4 subjects was covered it was ok. Please no flaming it doesnt serve any purpose, I have heard different things. I have been trying to call TC for the last 3 days (Vancouver office) and it's impossible to get through usually a week before a reply plus you need to be available when you call. I have at least 80hrs ground school. I wonder if I can just claim it without ptr.
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Re: Self study hours ppl

Post by photofly » Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:44 pm

If you can get that in writing from someone at TC I want a copy; we can save about a zillion hours of time and a zillion dollars. Why would anyone ever pay for groundschool ever again?
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Kirk: This is a dangerous mission. Likely, one of us will die. The landing party will be me, Spock, McCoy, and Ensign Ricky.
Ensign Ricky: Aw, crap.

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Re: Self study hours ppl

Post by AirFrame » Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:34 am

photofly wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:20 pm
Stop advising someone that they can make up their own groundschool. They can’t.
Nonsense. That's how I did my PPL. I took the syllabus from the FTU, and studied the entire thing at home without input from my instructor or the school (other than to ask questions when I needed clarification or couldn't find the answers in the books).

You're doing a good job of spouting the regs, but you're overlooking that even the line you quoted above has holes large enough to fly an Airbus through. It starts out with "classroom-like instruction" but ends with "or self-paced study." It can't be both, so clearly both are allowed. Regardless of how *you* interpret it, it practise it has been interpreted the same way I did for many pilots.
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Re: Self study hours ppl

Post by photofly » Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:10 am

Self-paced study, not self-study. Different. Self-paced, as in you pick the pace, not the material. That regulation, unlike many, is not unclear.

I’m glad you did an end run around the rules, and that you found an instructor or FTU to collude with you. You got away with it. Good job.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Kirk: This is a dangerous mission. Likely, one of us will die. The landing party will be me, Spock, McCoy, and Ensign Ricky.
Ensign Ricky: Aw, crap.

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Re: Self study hours ppl

Post by 455tt » Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:19 am

Aha. Just like I said - if it is good with the FTU and properly documented, then your self study will be just fine. Thanks for your input Airframe!
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Re: Self study hours ppl

Post by Posthumane » Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:26 am

photofly wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:10 am
Self-paced study, not self-study. Different. Self-paced, as in you pick the pace, not the material. That regulation, unlike many, is not unclear.

I’m glad you did an end run around the rules, and that you found an instructor or FTU to collude with you. You got away with it. Good job.
Doesn't the syllabus that he got from the FTU outline the material that he has to study? The resolution doesn't have to be "you will spend 14 minutes studying microburts, and then 22 minutes studying wind shear". All you need is an outline of topics that you have to know. The online ground schools such as the one offered by Harv's air are basically just a collection of presentations and confirmation tests. You can spend as much as or as little time on each topic as you like, as long as you learn the material well enough to pass the test.
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Re: Self study hours ppl

Post by photofly » Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:16 pm

Harv's Air has had considerable difficulty getting all TC regions to accept their online ground school as meeting the CARs requirements. In their course, which I have seen, Harv's Air provides all the materials - both written and video - keeps logs what you study and has considerable online testing that you have to take before getting a letter of recommendation. The fact that even going to the lengths that Harv's Air does to provide "self-paced study" doesn't without question meet the bar that TC sets (according to TC itself) should be a flag to anyone who thinks that deciding, themselves, to sit in front of "From the Ground Up" for 40 hours entitles them to claim credit for "ground school".

What we also learn, however, is that Transport Canada doesn't put a lot of effort into verifying what schools and/or instructors will sign off as acceptable. Once you get that letter of recommendation, it's nobody's job to check to see what's behind it.

The fact that instructors or schools are soft and will sign off study that clearly and obviously doesn't meet the requirements, doesn't mean that that study now meets the requirements.

But - if you can get away with it - good for you.
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Kirk: This is a dangerous mission. Likely, one of us will die. The landing party will be me, Spock, McCoy, and Ensign Ricky.
Ensign Ricky: Aw, crap.

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Re: Self study hours ppl

Post by AirFrame » Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:14 am

photofly wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:10 am
Selef-paced study, not self-study. Different. Self-paced, as in you pick the pace, not the material. That regulation, unlike many, is not unclear.

I’m glad you did an end run around the rules, and that you found an instructor or FTU to collude with you. You got away with it. Good job.
There was no "end run" around any rules or "get away" with anything, I followed the rules as written. I studied on my own as is permitted by the regulations. You may not read them that way, but it doesn't make my interpretation wrong. The fact that many people have done as I did, on their own or through Harv's Air, is proof of that. TC never said anything about it.
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