What dual hours qualify for instructor upgrades?

[ARQuattr]

When upgrading from Class IV to III, II, or I, there are experience requirements, e.g. for upgrade to Class II, from 421.71:
(3) Experience
An applicant shall provide evidence of having conducted, in aeroplanes, a minimum of 500 hours of flight instructor experience, including a minimum of:
(a) 400 hours dual flight instruction for the issue of a civil pilot licence

What counts toward the 'dual flight instruction for the issue of a license'? I thought it was essentially ab initio training such as for the RPP or PPL, and not things like night, multi or IFR ratings. But many CPL students get night ratings and IFR ratings in the process of working toward their CPL licenses, and use those dual hours to achieve the 35 minimum hours. Wouldn't that dual then count? Or would only 20 hrs instrument time (minimum for CPL) of the 40 (required for IFR) be credited for the instructor rating upgrade?

[ahramin]

My guess would be that if the student is receiving the training for the experience requirements of a CPL, then it counts regardless of what other ratings the student may also be pursuing. If the student already has the experience requirements for the CPL met or is training solely for a rating, then it doesn't count.

[Big Pistons Forever]

CAR 400.01 Interpretation

flight instructor experience with respect to the experience requirements for a flight instructor rating for an aeroplane or helicopter, means the flight time accumulated in an aeroplane or helicopter

(a) by a holder of a flight instructor rating while providing dual flight instruction to applicants for

(i) a pilot permit — recreational,

(ii) a private or commercial pilot licence, or

(iii) a night rating, VFR OTT rating, flight instructor rating — aeroplane, flight instructor rating — helicopter or flight instructor rating — aeroplane — aerobatic,

[ARQuattr]

Thanks Big Pistons. This is good for the general experience requirement (e.g. the 500 hrs required for class III), but part 3a states another requirement specifically for 'dual flight instruction for the issue of a civil pilot licence'. To me that's a narrower range of experience.

[photofly]

A civil pilot licence is a PPL or CPL. Those are the licences which require dual instruction. Everything else is a permit or rating. A “Pilot Permit - Recreational” is a permit and not a licence, and instruction towards it doesn’t count to the 400 hours.

[ARQuattr]

Thanks, OK, but back to my original point, dual for the night rating and at least some of the IFR rating is normally counted toward the dual for CPL, so wouldn't that count?

[photofly]

Nobody at Transport Canada is paid enough to argue with you.