Is spin endorsement in USA valid in Canada

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lishaoxuan
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Is spin endorsement in USA valid in Canada

#1 Post by lishaoxuan » Sun Sep 09, 2018 4:33 pm

Hello all,
I currently reside in the USA and hold an FAA commercial license. I am doing some training for Flight Instructor. One of the requirement is an endorsement to show that I am able to teach spin entry and recovery from the right seat.
Does the FI training in Canada require this? Will I be able to transfer this spin endorsement to Canada if I ever come to Canada and become an FI?
Thanks in advance
S.L.
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digits_
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Re: Is spin endorsement in USA valid in Canada

#2 Post by digits_ » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:08 pm

I've never heard of such a thing. However, Canadian FI candidates are required to be able to spin the plane from the right seat, and it can be requested that they demonstrate this on the flight test.
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photofly
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Re: Is spin endorsement in USA valid in Canada

#3 Post by photofly » Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:19 pm

By the time you add a tailwheel endorsement, a complex endorsement, a high power endorsement, a spin endorsement, and a high altitude endorsement, it's amazing that US pilots have any room left in their logs.

As digits_ says, there's no such thing as a spin endorsement in Canada, but yes, you could be asked to teach a lesson on spins as part of your flight instructor test, and if you ever instruct a student for a PPL in Canada you will have to teach them at least one spin entry and a recovery.
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pelmet
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Re: Is spin endorsement in USA valid in Canada

#4 Post by pelmet » Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:54 pm

photofly wrote:
Sun Sep 09, 2018 5:19 pm
By the time you add a tailwheel endorsement, a complex endorsement, a high power endorsement, a spin endorsement, and a high altitude endorsement, it's amazing that US pilots have any room left in their logs.
True......I have a bunch of these but our Canadian logbooks don't have the spaces made for the endorsement entry which is quite long and normally written word for word as given in an example book or section of a book from the FAA.
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Re: Is spin endorsement in USA valid in Canada

#5 Post by B208 » Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:23 am

A Canadian CPL allows you to perform all manoeuvres approved in the POH. There are some restrictions, (aerobatics), on what you can do with pax on board.
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Re: Is spin endorsement in USA valid in Canada

#6 Post by photofly » Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:41 am

A Canadian PPL (and a PIlot Permit - Recreational) also allow you to perform all manoeuvres for which the aircraft is approved.
For aerobatics, any of these licences or permits is adequate. In order to perform aerobatics with a passenger on board, the restriction of CAR602.28 must be met. Note that a student under training is not considered to be a passenger by Transport Canada.

Individual aircraft types may have other restrictions, but nothing hinges on the class of licence or permit which the pilot holds.
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Re: Is spin endorsement in USA valid in Canada

#7 Post by B208 » Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:18 am

photofly wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:41 am
Note that a student under training is not considered to be a passenger by Transport Canada.
Just so everyone is on the same page, teaching aerobatics requires an aerobatic instructor rating.
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Re: Is spin endorsement in USA valid in Canada

#8 Post by photofly » Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:06 pm

Can you quote a regulation that says that?

Specifically, lets say I don't have an aerobatics instructor rating and I teach someone to fly a Cuban eight, loop, barrel roll etc. What regulation am I breaking?
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digits_
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Re: Is spin endorsement in USA valid in Canada

#9 Post by digits_ » Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:19 pm

photofly wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:06 pm
Can you quote a regulation that says that?

Specifically, lets say I don't have an aerobatics instructor rating and I teach someone to fly a Cuban eight, loop, barrel roll etc. What regulation am I breaking?
Standards 425.21:

(10) A person who conducts flight training for experience in aerobatic manoeuvres shall:
(amended 2006/12/14)

(a) in the case of aeroplanes, have a Flight Instructor Rating - Aeroplane - Aerobatics; or
(amended 2006/12/14)

(b) in the case of gliders, have a Flight Instructor Rating - Glider - Aerobatics.
(amended 2006/12/14)
If you'd have said "show" it would have been fine, but I think the "teach" screws you over here :wink:
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Re: Is spin endorsement in USA valid in Canada

#10 Post by photofly » Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:58 pm

The regulation that you think would be broken then is actually 405.21 "(1) No person shall conduct flight training or a flight review unless the person is qualified as a flight instructor in accordance with the personnel licensing standards.", on the basis that the licensing standard 425.21 had not been met.

However I'm going to be a pedant and point out that the standard is for "flight training for experience in aerobatic manoeuvres". There is no standard for "flight instruction in conducting aerobatic manoeuvres."

By contrast, 602.28 says "602.28 No person operating an aircraft with a passenger on board shall conduct an aerobatic manoeuvre unless the pilot-in-command of the aircraft has engaged in (a) at least 10 hours dual flight instruction in the conducting of aerobatic manoeuvres; and..."

Clearly then there is a difference between "flight training for experience in" aerobatic manoeuvres for which an aerobatic instructor rating is required, and "flight instruction in the conducting of" aerobatic manoeuvres" for which there does not appear to be a prohibition for those not holding an aerobatic instructor rating.
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Last edited by photofly on Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is spin endorsement in USA valid in Canada

#11 Post by digits_ » Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:15 pm

photofly wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:58 pm
The regulation that you think would be broken then is actually 405.21 "(1) No person shall conduct flight training or a flight review unless the person is qualified as a flight instructor in accordance with the personnel licensing standards.", on the basis that the licensing standard 425.21 had not been met.
There are multiple references to 425.21, but sure, that one will work.
photofly wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:58 pm
However I'm going to be a pedant and point out that the standard is for "flight training for experience in aerobatic manoeuvres". There is no standard for "flight training in conducting aerobatic manoeuvres."
How do you expect one will conduct aerobatic manouevres without experiencing them or gaining experience in them? Even if you do it poorly, you gain experience into how not to do them.
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Re: Is spin endorsement in USA valid in Canada

#12 Post by photofly » Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:20 pm

Easy. The instructor says I'm going to give you INSTRUCTION in CONDUCTING aerobatic manoeuvres, and not TRAINING for EXPERIENCE IN aerobatic manoeuvres. If you - against my wishes - get TRAINED for EXPERIENCE IN, that is incidental to my INSTRUCTION in CONDUCTING, and has nothing to do with me.

Instruction and training - two different things. One is allowed, one is forbidden. Conducting, and experience in, two different things. One is allowed, one is forbidden. That's what the rules say. The government could have written the regulations using any choice of words it wanted, and those are the ones it picked. Don't blame it on me.
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Re: Is spin endorsement in USA valid in Canada

#13 Post by digits_ » Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:38 pm

photofly wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:20 pm
Easy. The instructor says I'm going to give you INSTRUCTION in CONDUCTING aerobatic manoeuvres, and not TRAINING for EXPERIENCE IN aerobatic manoeuvres. If you - against my wishes - get TRAINED for EXPERIENCE IN, that is incidental to my INSTRUCTION in CONDUCTING, and has nothing to do with me.

Instruction and training - two different things. One is allowed, one is forbidden. Conducting, and experience in, two different things. One is allowed, one is forbidden. That's what the rules say. The government could have written the regulations using any choice of words it wanted, and those are the ones it picked. Don't blame it on me.
Interesting.

They are not well defined, so this can probably go on forever, but I'd like to point out that the standards talk about "conducting flight training" whenever an instructor does/performs/executes/takes action to "do" flight training. Flight training is always "conducted" by the instructor.

Likewise, everytime an applicant, student or pilot needs a certain amount of hours, they call it experience. If we stick to those terms, you will gain experience when the instructor is conducting the flight training.
At the same time, the student might be conducting an aerobatic flight.

It is similar to IFR flying: you could conduct an IFR flight. If you conduct an IFR flight, and that instructor is conducting IFR training, you will gain dual ifr experience which will count towards the experience requirement for said rating.

There is no aerobatic rating, so they had to define the "goal" in a different way, eg experience aerobatic flight.

Or, in summary: conducting flight instructing always result in an experience increase for the party taking instructing, according to the frequently used terminology throughout the CAR and Standards.
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Re: Is spin endorsement in USA valid in Canada

#14 Post by photofly » Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:51 pm

training FOR experience in .... the preposition FOR means "with the purpose of" and implies the experience itself is an intention and a desired result of the training. Not just an incidental side-effect of the instruction in conducting. If the experience itself is incidental to you gaining the skill I am teaching you, then in what way am I training you FOR experience in aerobatics?

Another way to express the distinction: I avowedly train you FOR skills; when you reach a certain standard we have achieved our goal and we will stop. But if I was training you for experience, we would have achieved that after a certain amount of time; three hours experience could result in a lot of skill, or none at all.
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Re: Is spin endorsement in USA valid in Canada

#15 Post by B208 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:21 am

So, do we need to invoke the Not Withstanding Clause to settle this?
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Re: Is spin endorsement in USA valid in Canada

#16 Post by photofly » Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:26 am

It was just a bit of fun. I think you're basically correct.
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Re: Is spin endorsement in USA valid in Canada

#17 Post by digits_ » Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:32 pm

B208 wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:21 am
So, do we need to invoke the Not Withstanding Clause to settle this?
What are you referring to?
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Re: Is spin endorsement in USA valid in Canada

#18 Post by Zaibatsu » Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:42 pm

We don't have silly things like spin endorsements here in Canada.

Paradoxically, the "land of the free" has many rules and restrictions which are nonexistent in Canada.
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