Mount Royal Aviation?

[Life In The Sky]

I've almost completed my PPL and i am looking towards getting either my degree or diploma in aviation i am looking at coastal pacific but i was wondering if anyone went through the Mount Royal program and if it was worth it. I've heard some mixed stories from gradutes from there.

[aero220]

I went through the program and found it to be a waste of time and money. The training there was worse than I would have received if I had just went to the local club. The instructors were never on time and the planes were very over priced for they shape they were in.

Now that I am out in the industry, I found my diploma to be useless, no one cares. I have even been told to take it off my resume when applying with certain companies because they have had very bad experiences in the past with former grads.

On the advice of a friend already working for the charter I currently work at, I did not tell them I got my ratings at Mt. Royal. After they hired me and we began our training, they knew right away that I had went through Mt. royal because of what they call "Mount royalisms". These are weird procedure that were taught in Mt royal but not used anywhere else in the aviation industry. I had to unlearn all the crap they taught and relearn it in a way more acceptable by generally all other aviation companies. The chief pilot told me that if he knew I came from Mt royal in the first place he would not have hired me.

I have alot of other gripes with Mt Royal so If you are still considering it you can PM me for more info.

My advice would be to read one of the many posts that explain the advantages and disadvantages of a Degree and Diploma. If you are looking to get some post secondary education, skip the diploma and start to build credits toward a degree. If you choose to get a Diploma, go anywhere but Mt. Royal.

[gonnabeapilot]

What company do you work for in yyc?? I've got friends from MRC at Borek, CMA, Alta and Sunwest and none of them have had issues with what you describe. I think your experience is the exception to the rule and not the rule itself.

I found the Mount Royal program to be comparable to other flight schools. The big advantage to Mount Royal, like all other established flight colleges, is the common link that you share with alumni. You instantly have something in common with 30 years of graduates and that helps immensely in the industry. Time and time again I have seen people go above and beyond to help somebody out simply because they were a fellow Mount Royal graduate. I would recomend any established college diploma program over a normal flight school. As far as figuring out which program to choose, just choose it based off location. Would you rather be a poor student living in Calgary or Vancouver? Simple as that.

Cheers,

gonnabe

[CYYC/CYBW]

I have head similar things from the senior pilots within my company as well. Mt. Royal seems to have produced exceptional graduates from its conception all the way up to the late 90's. It seems now that the sucess of their grads seems to be decreasing, and although some great pilots still seem to come through the program, many more seem to be below average.

I know that Mt royal has been having problems attracting students to their program (Recently offering marketing ploys like Discovery flight to attract extra intrest), that may be a cause of the lower standards. Class sizes have dropped from the 40 range all the way down to 16 or less in previous years.

I think that maybe Mt. Royal is just going through a tough time now and once they get back on their feet, the program will once again produce great pilots.

As far as choosing Mt. Royal or not, try talking to Recent grads (in the last few years) who are in the industry now. Ask them how they felt about their training because chances are it will be similar training to what you would receive. Dont ask grads that have graduated a long time ago becaue they had different instructors, Program chairs, and Chief pilots. A great program can become a horible one if the wrong staffing choices are made. I would also say not to put too much faith into what the current students say because they are just learning and will not truly know what effect their education has in their emplyability untill they actuall get out there.

Cheers

[SuperDave]

If you want to eventually fly for the airlines, the colledge diploma is probably good, since post seconday ed. is usually a requirement. However, keep in mind that your first job as a pilot will more than likely not be in the right seat of a Dash-8, like many schools tend to advertise. Yeah...I know the industry is "booming", but ya can't run before you crawl. I never did go through the colledge thing, however I have run into a lot that have, and found most of them to have a bit of a attitude. Don't get me wrong, confidence is a must, but overconfidence is no good and will eventually get ya hurt. But I can't generalize. There are good and bad apples in all walks of life, and I've met some really good guys too that went through the diploma.
But I'll never forget two fellas rolling up to the dock in Yellowknife decked out in suit and ties, wanting me to take a picture of them by "that little float plane over there", pointing to the Beaver. They informed me that they just graduated from Mount Royal, and by the way, what kind of a plane was the one tied to the dock? C'mon, you can't show up in a place like Yellowknife looking for a job and not know what a Beaver looks like...but we all learn one way or another. Nobody is born with infinite knowledge about aviation and 10,000 hours in their logbook.
One other thing to consider, like you may have read on these forums, is the length of time your IFR will remain current. Lots go through the colledge and come out of credentials up to their nose. But not many companies will hire someone with 250hrs to rip through the clouds in their twin. You'll more than likely end up in the north somewhere, working the ramp, towing gliders, or flying skydivers...nothing wrong with any of that. But by the time you finally get in a plane the IFR may be expired. Not a huge deal, but something to consider. That's the most common complaint I've heard from people that have gone through programs like that.
I'm sure the Aviation diplomas have their benefits, and I don't want to sound like I'm bashing them, it depends what you want to do. But I'd say 6/10 people I know that went through it thought it was a 'waste' of money.

I've heard good things about CP. A friend of mine went to Coastal Pacific and he liked it. Either way, good luck in your endevours, you'll find what's right for you. Just don't apply for a job up north dressed in a suit and tie..

[Dave T]

I think that aero220's opinion is a minority. I found that at MRC even though the instructors may not have the same level of experience that they once did, the instruction is still better than your standard flying club. Through some of the courses you learn a lot more than you would in a standard ground school. And then you finally have all the people that you meet along the way. People that I met at MRC were a major reason that I have the job I have now and well some people say to take it off your resume I have found in entry level it does make a small difference. Finally when you are applying to Air Canada it seems that mainly people with post secondary are getting hired at the moment. So in the shortrun if anything the people you meet will help you our and in the long run you have a much better shot at an airline!

[SuperDave]

Yeah...it's all about networking...
Sometimes credentials will get you a job, but in this industry especially, often it's all who you know...

Good point, I neve gave much thought to the amount of people you'll get to know at a place like that, all with similar interest and intentions. That would make it cool, as well as the comraderie (is that how you spell it?) would also be good and one could make life-long friends. Word.

And yes AC likes degrees, and rightly so if they can pick and choose. But we could argue 'til the end of eternity that they are also missing out on a bunch of great pilots that do not hold a degree...
At the same time, I know of a few operators that will not hire anyone with a Aviation College Degree 'cause they think they're all a bunch of pretty boys. But ya can't make everyone happy. You must always step to your own beat I guess...whatever turns your crank eh!?!

[FLYaJET]

Alot of the people i know lately being hired by Air Canada has had a college diploma from somewhere.

I hear that Mt. Royal is a good program. Decent airplanes, great simulator. It has been in buisness for over 35 years as a college program with chief pilots and other pilots all over the world from Kenn Borek, Northwright, Japan Airlines, Air canada, Westjet, Central Mountain Air.....the list goes on.

You know the saying. "If you know two people in a company, your chances of getting a job are 85%. If you knnow no one in a company, chances are 15%.

Anyways.....do your research and dont get suckered into a hole you cant get out of. There are alot of places that call themself "Colleges" even one at springbank...just in order for thier students to get student loans.

later

[JULIETTE]

I did the Mount Royal program about 11 years ago and found it to be great. My experience was good and I did like most aspects of my 2 years there.

I recently refered a friend who was trying to get into business to the mount royal program. Many things had changed since I had taken the program and from what he and his classmates told me, the program seemed to be slipping. My friend was very dissatisfied with the program and ended up getting so frustrated that he left just after fininshing the first year.

I recently interviewed and did a sim ride with a few recent grads and found their skills to be average and maybe even below average. I have always had a slightly higher expectation from Mount Royal grads but now it seems I should not. Out of the 3 grads I interviewed, only one could pass the basic Instrument ride in our sim. What has happened to this once good program?

[Dojoroboto]

I Just graduated from the program and thought it was not bad but not great. It definately has a few kinks that need to be worked out.

I know what aero is talking about when he mentioned weird procedures that they teach that are not used in other operations. I am currently in the process of unlearning some bad habits they taught me.

Am I glad I took the program and recieved a diploma? It is hard to say now because I am so green in the industry, but the diploma was not any help for that all importaint first job. I hope the extra time and money spent on this aviation Diploma will pay off later down the road.

I was a little dissapointed in the networking opportunities many people said I would get by going to Mt Royal. I had a very small class to start out with and about 1/4 left before finishing the program, also the class before mine was one of the smallest yet. I have met alot of past grads and although friendly, they do not seem any more interested in helping out or giving advice to a fellow grad than they would to a person who did not go through the program.

-Happy Flying

[Windatmyback]

Did the Mt Royal program a 'few' years back and found it to be average. That said, given the chance to do it all over again, I wouldn't. I haven't found that my aviation diploma has helped me with any respect to getting a job or being a better trained '200 hr wonder' than the next joe blow. Nothing against post secondary education but I wouldn't bother. Get done your flight training as fast as you can and get yourself in the job market ASAP. That'll make more of a difference of where you'll be in 5 years in this thing we call aviation.

[KNM06]

I haven't found that my aviation diploma has helped me with any respect to getting a job

I found my diploma to be useless, no one cares

The diploma may seem useless at first but if you have any hopes of getting on the major airlines, they seem to be only hiring people with aviation diplomas or degrees... if you go the route of receiving flight training at your local flight school you better have a degree from university

[JULIETTE]

Most major airlines or large companies will either not require Post-secondary education, or require a degree. There are very few companies out there that want a diploma OR a degree, usually it comes down to Degree or no Degree, and a Diploma is classified as no degree.

If you want addition education to be a hiring point of yours, go the full way and get a degree, not a diploma. To get a major airline job, most of the people in my Mt. Royal class had to go back to school and obtain a degree even though they already had an aviation Diploma. The Diploma Provided a good start to their degree because some classes were carried over as arts and science requirements. If you were to ask them now, they would probably tell you that their diploma was practically a waste and they should have just taken a degree program in the first place.

The aviation degree has lost its value greatly in past few years because of all the schools that now offer aviation diplomas. Just here in alberta, there are more than 25 places to get a degree from. There are full time courses like Mt. Royal, Diplomas received through a co-op with the local flight school and an educational institution(like Bow Valley college Program), and even total correspondence courses to get a diploma (like athabasca college program).

All of these program are grouped into one large group called "aviation diplomas". A Mount Royal student would have the same chance at a job as a person who got a diploma through correspondence and never set foot into a college or university.

[FLYaJET]

I agree with KNM06 totaly. Everyone i have heard that are getting jobs with aircanada have had at least a college diploma. You think you know what you are talking about JULIETTE, dont you? Go to the Air canada website and take a look at the requiremtns for pilots. Not required but it says right on there that it is highly recommends either a college diploma or university degree and that will give you an advantage. So its not useless! and someone with a college diploma doesnt have the same shot as a non college guy/gal........they have a definate advantage. !

Later

[av8tor_assrope]

hey FLYaJET, i think Juliette was just pointing out the fact that any idiot can get a diploma these days and your better off using that diploma money for a degree.

now i disagree with the whole ac post sec bit, but if your really ugly and can't manage to flirt with the female recruiters, i guess that post sec education will save your ass after all

cheers

[JULIETTE]

Not required but it says right on there that it is highly recommends either a college diploma or university degree

The website also said 1000 hours, but I dont know of many 1000 hour pilots getting jobs with Air Canada. It also says an ATPL is just reccomended , I am sure there is not one pilot in aircanada that only has a commercial multi IFR rating.

I can only speak from my own experience and the experience of many of my classmates who all have an aviation Diploma. Many had more than 4 times the minimum hours stated on the site and an aviation diploma but at previous interviews and from other pilots within AC, they were told to get a degree before they would get an interview.

Website requirements mean nothing, they are usually put in place by the Human resources department of the company and may not be the same requirements the people who are actually in charge of hiring may want. I have seen pilots with 500hrs get jobs stated as 2000hr minimum and pilots with 4500hrs not be able to get jobs stated at 1000hrs minimum. Dont base too much of your decisions on what a website says.

[PC-12 Flyer]

The beat advice would be to get the education for the job you hope to get. If your dream job is flying for a certain small charter, go to them and ask what they think of a Diploma and if it would help you to get a job there in the future. Some companies think the diploma creates far better pilots, but most feel that it is not that important and will not give you priority because you have it.

As far as the Air Canada thing goes, I have talked to many people there including current pilots and even one of their training captains. They all told me that although not written anywhere, they are looking for Degrees and it would be extremely hard to get a job there without one. They would hire a pilot with a diploma if he was exceptional, but they would also hire an exceptional pilot with no diploma. If Air Canada is where you hope to go, I dont think just a diploma would cut it.

If West Jet is where you are hoping to go (a far better choice I think), you may have a chance with your Diploma; One of their founders went through the Mt. Royal Program himself. In the past I have heard of them taking pilots with diplomas, but now many people are saying they are going more towards Air Canada's attitude of Degree=Job.

So, do your research and talk to the right people (the people who actually do the interviews) and ask them specifically what advantage a diploma would have when applying to their company. For the most part, you will find people dont care about your diploma but you may find a few that think a diploma is far better than nothing and would give you priority over another candidate who did not have one.

[shitdisturber]

Not required but it says right on there that it is highly recommends either a college diploma or university degree

The website also said 1000 hours, but I dont know of many 1000 hour pilots getting jobs with Air Canada. It also says an ATPL is just reccomended , I am sure there is not one pilot in aircanada that only has a commercial multi IFR rating.

You mean you can't get on with AC with only 1000 hours and a commercial multi-ifr? I think we should launch a class action suit against Air Canada, that is clearly false advertising.

[airway]

I know what aero is talking about when he mentioned weird procedures that they teach that are not used in other operations. I am currently in the process of unlearning some bad habits they taught me.

Just out of interest, what procedures are you trying to unlearn?

[Windatmyback]

OK, lots of talk about secondary education (diploma/university degree). I agree that when applying at Air Canada it probably will help. I'm in my career job flying a 'fire truck' and not a 'city bus'. My aviation diploma has helped me all of zero times along the way. Good work ethic, attitude, and excellent working relationships in the industry have proven to be much more valuable than 2 to 4 years in the classroom. Not everybody is looking for the same things in this industry, so the variables will always be there. My 2 cents......