Aircraft checkout who logs pic

This forum has been developed to discuss flight instruction/University and College programs.

Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, Right Seat Captain, lilfssister, North Shore

Post Reply
rotorspeed
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:50 pm

Aircraft checkout who logs pic

Post by rotorspeed »

Here in CANADA or lets say USA and you want to rent a 172 you have to do a checkout. Who logs the pic.? You or the checkout person
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
C-GGGQ
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2051
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 12:33 pm

Re: Aircraft checkout who logs pic

Post by C-GGGQ »

I believe it counts as dual instruction so the instructor is pic, in Canada at least. No idea about the US.
---------- ADS -----------
 
ahramin
Rank Moderator
Rank Moderator
Posts: 6309
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:21 pm
Location: Vancouver

Re: Aircraft checkout who logs pic

Post by ahramin »

It depends on who is in command of the aircraft. Normally the person getting checked out is receiving instruction from the person giving them the checkout. In that case the person receiving instruction logs dual and the person in command of the aircraft and giving instruction logs PIC.
---------- ADS -----------
 
photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 11306
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Hangry and crankypated

Re: Aircraft checkout who logs pic

Post by photofly »

There's no such official thing as a "checkout" in Canada, and so whoever is the pilot in command logs PIC. You should agree who is PIC before the flight; if a contravention occurs and TC wants to punish someone you want to have evidence that you agreed who it was going to be, beforehand, or TC will make their own decision.

Who can be PIC will often be informed by insurance requirements or licences and ratings held: only one pilot may be eligible.

If you're not PIC then it's important not to behave like one: It's also possible that TC will decide that a pilot who was not appropriately licensed, or did not have the correct rating, was directing the flight and so acting as PIC, thereby flying outside their privileges.

For instance, the FAA has taken enforcement action against a passenger ATPL who was in the back seat of a four seater at the time, on the basis that he was by far the most senior pilot present and he should have prevented whatever infraction it was that occurred.

Next, if you're not the PIC, ask yourself why you want to log the flight as "dual". An insurance checkout doesn't depend on you logging "dual", it's sufficient that the flight actually ocurred. If you claim the time as "dual" then make sure the PIC has the appropriate instructor rating or other licence condition to meet the requirements to provide instruction towards whichever licence or rating you're logging the "dual" towards, or it will be disallowed if anyone checks.

As a reminder, here is the definition from CAR101:
dual instruction flight time means the flight time during which a person is receiving flight instruction from a person qualified in accordance with section 425.21 of the Personnel Licensing and Training Standards respecting Flight Training; (temps d’instruction de vol en double commande)
In the USA it's possible for more than one pilot to log PIC time at the same time (although only one pilot is, in fact, PIC), however TC does not allow this time logged in the US to count as PIC time towards a Canadian licence or rating unless the pilot claiming the time was actually the PIC.
---------- ADS -----------
 
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
rotorspeed
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:50 pm

Re: Aircraft checkout who logs pic

Post by rotorspeed »

So if you're a licensed pilot you should get the pic. You're not receiving instruction, they're asking you to perform manoeuvres to show that you can fly the aircraft correctly. But it still isn't clear. I didn't know 2 could log pic in aircraft in usa.
---------- ADS -----------
 
altiplano
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5377
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:24 pm

Re: Aircraft checkout who logs pic

Post by altiplano »

It only amounts to a few hours in the end I suppose, but I considered myself as, and logged it as PIC on my checkouts from PPL thru IFR and onward, rides in turboprops, etc...

I think I was told that by the TC check pilot on my first ride - the PPL... to log it as my first PIC hours and it stuck with me after that.
---------- ADS -----------
 
rotorspeed
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 218
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:50 pm

Re: Aircraft checkout who logs pic

Post by rotorspeed »

I've noticed on some sites in the US they call it instruction
Was wondering about us due to thinking about building some solo time in so cal
---------- ADS -----------
 
photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 11306
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Hangry and crankypated

Re: Aircraft checkout who logs pic

Post by photofly »

rotorspeed wrote: Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:48 pm So if you're a licensed pilot you should get the pic. You're not receiving instruction, they're asking you to perform manoeuvres to show that you can fly the aircraft correctly. But it still isn't clear. I didn't know 2 could log pic in aircraft in usa.
You can still demonstrate your proficiency if you are not the PIC. And, you can still learn stuff, like how to fly a new type, even if the person you’re learning from doesn’t met the requirements for you to log dual instruction time. You just can’t count the time towards any licence or rating.

The FAA allows the PIC to log PIC time obviously, but also anyone qualified who is the “sole manipulator of the controls” under conditions when two pilots are required. So for instance a safety pilot can be the actual PIC but a licensed pilot who was flying under the hood can also log PIC time.
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/fi ... 20TIME.pdf
(By comparison, TC doesn’t have a requirement that a safety observer be a pilot at all).
altiplano wrote: Wed Oct 10, 2018 1:15 am It only amounts to a few hours in the end I suppose, but I considered myself as, and logged it as PIC on my checkouts from PPL thru IFR and onward, rides in turboprops, etc...

I think I was told that by the TC check pilot on my first ride - the PPL... to log it as my first PIC hours and it stuck with me after that.
The law changed a couple of years ago, and now the examiner is required to be PIC for Flight tests.
---------- ADS -----------
 
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
User avatar
PilotDAR
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4053
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:46 pm
Location: Near CNJ4 Orillia, Ontario

Re: Aircraft checkout who logs pic

Post by PilotDAR »

I've known several "checkout" situations where the more experienced pilot was acting as a mentor, assuming that the pilot flying (owner of the plane) was PIC. After the accident, it was not that clear, TC, TSB and insurers too a different viewpoint. Indeed, I know of one flight, where, from a regulator basis, the designation of PIC changed from one pilot to the other at the landing. So, yes, as Photofly states, it's wise for this to be acknowledged before the flight, in harmony with the regulations.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
AirFrame
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2610
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:27 pm
Location: Sidney, BC
Contact:

Re: Aircraft checkout who logs pic

Post by AirFrame »

altiplano wrote: Wed Oct 10, 2018 1:15 amI think I was told that by the TC check pilot on my first ride - the PPL... to log it as my first PIC hours and it stuck with me after that.
Your first PIC flight was on your flight test? No solo flights before then? Those were PIC as well.
---------- ADS -----------
 
altiplano
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5377
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:24 pm

Re: Aircraft checkout who logs pic

Post by altiplano »

AirFrame wrote: Wed Oct 10, 2018 6:28 am
altiplano wrote: Wed Oct 10, 2018 1:15 amI think I was told that by the TC check pilot on my first ride - the PPL... to log it as my first PIC hours and it stuck with me after that.
Your first PIC flight was on your flight test? No solo flights before then? Those were PIC as well.
Thanks. Of course, I didn't word that right... I meant to add to my first PIC hours.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “Flight Training”