That Smooth Landing

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pelmet
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Re: That Smooth Landing

Post by pelmet » Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:10 pm

5x5 wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:21 am
pelmet wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:23 pm
Talked to the owner of a flight school today with 9 C172's about tailstrikes. He says that they get them on a very regular basis in terms of a scrape of some sort on the tiedown ring. That being said, he did also stated that structural damage was rare, although they change the tiedown ring regularly.
I suggest you talk to him again and see if perchance most of the "tailstrikes" aren't in fact encountered during a poorly executed soft field takeoff? Poorly prepared students who add full power with the yoke pulled all the way back are often surprised when the nose rears up and if back pressure isn't released somewhat right away it doesn't take long for the tail ring to skid on the runway. It's not hard enough to damage the aircraft but sure chews through rings. I'd bet that's why he's replacing tiedown rings and not from actual landing strikes which would be accompanied by much higher forces.
Thanks,

He stated that they were happening on both takeoffs and landings. Landings are what I have been discussing on the thread.
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digits_
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Re: That Smooth Landing

Post by digits_ » Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:48 pm

Well looks like aviation is really in trouble if tail strikes in a 172 are becoming a real concern.

I wish that was a joke, but I don't think it is...
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photofly
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Re: That Smooth Landing

Post by photofly » Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:46 pm

The best way to reach the right attitude is to try to hold it off as long as possible.

Of course you need to do it smoothly, and at an appropriate height above the runway. If you do that, then no tailstrike.

If you bounce wildly and overrotate rapidly, then sure, anything could happen. Airplanes have angular momentum and will briefly continue to rotate nose up past a normal stalling attitude if you yank back on the yoke. Also if you drop it in from a height, the undercarriage will compress, as it is designed to do. But really it’s not tricky to avoid doing those things. And videos of people doing those things don’t really have much to offer.

BTW your flightschool owner needs a better CFI if he or she has regular tail ring repairs because of both lousy takeoffs and landings. I wouldn’t put up with it so nonchalantly.
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ghazanhaider
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Re: That Smooth Landing

Post by ghazanhaider » Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:17 pm

I would keep the 'hold it off as long as possible' advice intact. I kept getting bouncy landings and porpoised 2-3 times in my grumman before I realized keeping the nosewheel at about 2-3 feet above runway makes for good landings. The grumman is much more pitch-sensitive than cessnas. I've never had tail strikes and the last few hundred hours have all been great landings on a lot of new runways all over north america.

I might modify it and say 'dont get too crazy', and fly the airplane for the student so the student knows what attitude to expect, and maybe overshoot right away if its getting close to a tailstrike, but I'd definitely give the 'hold it off' advice over any other techniques.
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PilotDAR
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Re: That Smooth Landing

Post by PilotDAR » Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:02 am

maybe overshoot right away if its getting close to a tailstrike
Oooo, I don't know about that. If you've got yourself to a point during your flare where tailstrike is a risk, applying go around power will probably worsen your predicament, rather than improve it'. You're going to be hanging on the prop with high power, counteracting torque, with a risk that the nose may go higher, and you may still be settling. If your spidy senses are telling you that the nose is too high, and tail strike is a risk, stop pulling back. Don't push forward, just stop pulling back. The plane will slow ('cause you have the power off - right?) and settle on in its own time, very likely without a tailstrike.

If your main wheels are on the runway, and then you tailstrike, what were you doing!?!
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5x5
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Re: That Smooth Landing

Post by 5x5 » Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:05 am

pelmet wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:10 pm
5x5 wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:21 am
pelmet wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:23 pm
Talked to the owner of a flight school today with 9 C172's about tailstrikes. He says that they get them on a very regular basis in terms of a scrape of some sort on the tiedown ring. That being said, he did also stated that structural damage was rare, although they change the tiedown ring regularly.
I suggest you talk to him again and see if perchance most of the "tailstrikes" aren't in fact encountered during a poorly executed soft field takeoff? Poorly prepared students who add full power with the yoke pulled all the way back are often surprised when the nose rears up and if back pressure isn't released somewhat right away it doesn't take long for the tail ring to skid on the runway. It's not hard enough to damage the aircraft but sure chews through rings. I'd bet that's why he's replacing tiedown rings and not from actual landing strikes which would be accompanied by much higher forces.
Thanks,

He stated that they were happening on both takeoffs and landings. Landings are what I have been discussing on the thread.
Sure, you can choose what you'd like to discuss on any thread. The rest of us can contribute as we see fit and don't need your approval. Ask your contact that provided the info you related about the percentage that are takeoff vs landing. I bet the t/o scrape is much more common than the landing (although neither should ever be frequent), so let's not make something rare the focus of the conversation. And if landings are the big part of their problem then they have real serious issues with the training they're providing.
photofly wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:46 pm
BTW your flightschool owner needs a better CFI if he or she has regular tail ring repairs because of both lousy takeoffs and landings. I wouldn’t put up with it so nonchalantly.
No kidding!!
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digits_
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Re: That Smooth Landing

Post by digits_ » Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:46 am

ghazanhaider wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:17 pm
I might modify it and say 'dont get too crazy'
The goal of the "try to keep it flying" is to give new students an easy way to land an airplane with a short single verbal command. There is no need to further complicate it with "don't get too crazy". Students are generally pretty shy and would instinctively land too flat. The majority need encouragement to raise the nose to have a nice touchdown.

By the time you are teaching landings, they should be able to handle the airplane smoothly, and they won't have the desire to be rough or violent with the controls. And if they do, that's what the instructor is there for.

The examples mentioned here about a tailstrike are when practicing short field landings and over rotating on take-off. None of those are applicable for the pre solo student learning how to do his first landings.

Keep it simple.
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