okotoks flight school

[5x5]

Maybe because people start flying before they have a radio license, then they build hours being number 6 for take off, getting used to controllers, flying in traffic etc.

Things are a bit different compared to the good old days, learning nordo off a big grass circle.

Nope Beef, you've got it all wrong. It's all because schools, students and airplanes (nose-draggers for goodness sakes) aren't as good as they used to be in the "good old days". A number of high-count posters over the years should have made that very clear to you by now.

[Beefitarian]

Sorry.

[trey kule]

Beef wrote

Maybe because people start flying before they have a radio license, then they build hours being number 6 for take off, getting used to controllers, flying in traffic etc.

Or....maybe it has something to do with the FTUs convincing TC to redine flight time from engine on to engine off.
I figure an extra $400 at least to training costs on a ppl.
Maybe someone will take TC totask for allowing this practice as it is not what the CARs state.

[Schooner69A]

Wasn't flight time always thusly defined?

In over sixty years of flying, there's always been "air time" and "flight time". Was there a time when the definitions were different?

J

[Aviatard]

Wasn't flight time always thusly defined?

In over sixty years of flying, there's always been "air time" and "flight time". Was there a time when the definitions were different?

J

CARS 101.01(1) says this:
flight time means the time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight;

It may have changed at some point, but I have no idea when that may have been.

[trey kule]

No the definition has not changed as per the CARs.
What has changed is FTUs using Hobbs time as flight time. Based on oil pressure,that means from engine start to engine stop.
And, what is really at issue,is TC approving the practice.

Instructors dont want students listening to AWOS or ATIS before startup. Let the engine warm up a bit while you do that, set your radios, and run your post start-pretaxi, 107 item checklist for your 172. All flight time approved by TC. No movement of the aircraft, but, you know, its flight time. Same with stopping. Brakes on, engine cooling down and run the checklist.....all is flight time. Whats a .1 in the grand scheme of things? Lets see, 25 flight lessons at .1 is about 2.5 hours at $200 an hour....do the math.instructors seldom will; they get paid by the flight hour.

With the current tracking systems and GPS it is quite simple to track actual flight time down to seconds. But that would cost money for an FTU to install , and cut into revenues. As long as TC allows this it is not going to change

[Aviatard]

Until I came here I never knew how evil FTUs were. For sure the fuel you burn after starting is free. Same for time the airplanes and instructor sitting on the ramp. Imagine charging for that.

Look at Hertz. They only charge you the part of the $69.85 daily rate that you were actually driving the car right?



*some parts of this post may have been sarcasm.

[Schooner69A]

Trey K: when renting an aircraft in Fredericton some thirty years ago that "flight time" was from chalk to chalk. That was from an FTU. Was there another way of doing it? Did FTUs only charge for air time at some point?

[trey kule]

No. It should be chalk to chalk.
Not engine start to engine stop.

As to charging. That is not the issue here. It is about logging time that is not flight time at all. Charging before the plane moves and after ithas stopped.

Be honest avitard. That should be included in the rate charged. You are not charging the student by the day (as a car rental place does). You are charging by the flight hour, and padding flight hours is not honest....though TC seems to think its ok.

Add a few more FTU weasalpractices in and it is not hard to see why the average flight hours for a ppl goes up.
I am very much in favor of flight instructors being paid better. But this is not the way to do it,

[Squaretail]

Technically speaking, chock to chock also wouldn't describe flight time either, since that would include time some one is out of the aircraft possibly placing chocks. Or waiting for them to be placed. But then also technically speaking, I can only imagine that Trey is busy recording all the short "flights" when the airplane starts and stops moving en-route to and from a runway. I'm glad that a regulatory purist has found the single most important thing that is plaguing flight training and is taking a stand.

Or are you guys referring to writing times down with chalk? Do you have a little slate on your knee board? I'm confused.

I mean some flight time discrepancies of those minutes from when the key turns, until the pilot is maybe doing something useful and the time to when the wheels stop moving and the mixture gets pulled is clearly where flight training is going wrong. Lets petition transport about getting this right. Forget about poor supervision of instructors, the use of simulators for ab-initio, inexperienced CFIs, inexperienced class ones, pilot examiners conflicts of interests, the controlled nature of the pool of pilot examiners, don't leave anything out 2 hour PGIs, lack of or misplaced regulatory oversight, scenario based ab-initio, shrinking domestic training resources, lessening home grown aviation interests, decreasing regulator industry experience, outdated licensing requirements, an irrelevant written testing regime, lacking and out of touch practical testing requirements, onerous regulatory start up hurdles, excruciatingly poor regulatory service levels, high instructor turnover, and last, but not least or exhaustively, low instructor experience.

No. Lets focus on how flight time is recorded. THAT's what matters most!

[trey kule]

Well your attempt at humorous sarcasm did not get missed.

Here is something to give some thought to.
Chalk to chalk is an old military term because the chalks were removed and placed for you.
No need to know aviation history if you are an entitled millennium.
And , I suppose, no need to actually look up the definition of flight time. If you did you would not be making comments like stop and starts. But hey, ignorance allows you to beak off.
Yes, there are many areas flight training could be improved. But for those who don’t suffer from under 25 ADD, my post was in response to the discussion.
If you think it is OK to have a regulator approved deviance from the CARs that costs students
more money or dishonest billing, so be it. Btw. The solution to this problem is very simple. Rather than trot out problems, how about offering practical solutions to them.
I never could understand how some instructors could look a student straight in the face and casually explain 70 hour ppls as normal. The flight syllabus has not changed in some 30 years, But after seeing some of the posts here, I get it now...

[Beefitarian]

But waiting for twenty minutes because you are number 6 for take off and there are planes landing at a busy airport, is after the chocks have been pulled and you taxied to position.

I'm not saying a school should let me sit there for free but I feel like that is potentially adding hours to anyone that might be writing time in a ptr. Wether they use chalk or not.

[Schooner69A]

TK: I understand the point you were trying to make. Engine "ON" to "Engine Off" DOES take advantage of the student.

During my short civilian instructing period, we used "Up, Down, plus point two". Worked well...

J

[photofly]

Alas, “airtime plus .2” is expressly forbidden by Transport.

[rookiepilot]

I know ground time added some to my PPL. Just waiting. As did changing an instructor, then having to fly with the class 2 to verify what the class 4 taught me, before the flight test. LOL.

The real ripoff is the one flight I did where after engine started, dude decided to do an unannounced 15 minute "ground briefing " right there in the airplane.

Nice. Never again. Real loser.

Don't be a scumbag and do that to your students.

[Beefitarian]

Nice.

Also, a few years ago I returned to YBW for some dual. Even after doing it a few times I was still a bit uncomfortable switching from tower to outer tower to Calgary VFR to practice area frequency then the same in reverse order just to go do a bit of upper air practice. Four hours in I was a bit better.

When the radio work overwhelms a licensed guy, I'm betting it will add time to training for a person who is a bit nervous just talking to the scary controllers.

Maybe you fellows have a different opinion but I would never force a student to go solo until they are completely at ease with the airspace and radio work. Even if it added time to their ptr.

[Aviatard]

TK: I understand the point you were trying to make. Engine "ON" to "Engine Off" DOES take advantage of the student.

During my short civilian instructing period, we used "Up, Down, plus point two". Worked well...

J

How is charging for that time taking advantage? My time is yours. I am not available to do anything else. The plane isn’t available for any other purpose. You’re burning fuel. You should pay. But let’s be real. It amounts to maybe a minute of extra billed time at either end of a flight unless you’re super mentally challenged.

As for logging that time instead of using the CARS definition of flight time, I do not disagree that isn’t correct.

[Aviatard]

The real ripoff is the one flight I did where after engine started, dude decided to do an unannounced 15 minute "ground briefing " right there in the airplane.

Nice. Never again. Real loser.

Don't be a scumbag and do that to your students.

Can’t argue with that. It shouldn’t happen. You’re absolutely right. Now I understand your constant rants about Evil FTUs.

[rookiepilot]

The real ripoff is the one flight I did where after engine started, dude decided to do an unannounced 15 minute "ground briefing " right there in the airplane.

Nice. Never again. Real loser.

Don't be a scumbag and do that to your students.

Can’t argue with that. It shouldn’t happen. You’re absolutely right. Now I understand your constant rants about Evil FTUs.

Don't get me started about instructors who've never left the circuit other than their 300 NM cc in 5 knots, SKC and a million, calling themselves "experienced", LOL. My favourites are when they wear cool shades -- inside the FTU building -- and those cool uniform shirts with the bars on them. Iceman, returns.

I've had to stop myself from saluting.

The best of the best should be instructors. Too bad it isn't that way.

[Schooner69A]

"Alas, “airtime plus .2” is expressly forbidden by Transport."

I hope they never ask to see my logbooks: they will notice a certain pattern in all my recording of hours...