Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

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L39Guy
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by L39Guy »

C.W.E, please read my post carefully:

"This is no longer a hands and feet, stick and rudder profession that you entered decades ago. Professional aviators, at the Airline Pilot level (not the Commercial pilot level) require not only those skills but also those of a systems manager and a people (crew) manager. More and more sophisticated aircraft, thanks to technology and the aircraft manufacturers, and more team oriented cockpit skills, thanks to those that failed to use their crew and accidents were the result."

Rookiepilot:

I won't bother to debate the virtues of higher education although it is people with higher education that advances our society in engineering, sciences, medicine, etc. If there is any industry that has benefited from highly educated people it is aviation where we fly amazingly sophisticated and safe aircraft but that's a debate for another day.

But I will say this, as you can see from the desirable qualities sought by the airlines I quoted earlier, they clearly value a post secondary education, be it an aviation diploma or degree or other forms of education. I think that damn good proof that they value the education and skills, some directly applicable and some not, that one gains in these programs.
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Napoleon So Low
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by Napoleon So Low »

Spoken like a true shill. Your posts read like commercials for Seneca.
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by PilotDAR »

I am happy for those of you that have flown 51 years or 30 years or whatever without the benefit of a flying college diploma or a higher education. That was then, this is now and times have changed. This is no longer a hands and feet, stick and rudder profession that you entered decades ago.
Times have not changed as much as you suggest, the aircraft are still certified to standards very similar to those of decades ago, and a competent (hands and feet) pilot, with relaxed, experience build confidence is still the most important safety feature of an aircraft. Sure, there are much more advanced electronic navigation and display systems, which do require learning - that learned is best done by building on the learning skills of a solid knowledge of basic systems. When I first flew G1000, the only thing which was not intuitive was the "ball", which is the only display whose format was not retained from the old steam gauge format. Yes, I fly with reference to "the ball".
With that in mind, tell me what is wrong with learning:
1. Basic and advanced aircraft system - each and every aircraft course I have done, seven in total, spend weeks learning the unique aircraft systems so clearly this is valuable learning.
2. Aircraft performance - each and every flight requires knowledge of aircraft performance from take-off to touch-down
3. Crew resource management - see above
4. Computer programming - this includes working with an FMS, EFIS, VNAV, etc.
5. 100 hours of simulator time applying the skills learned in the classroom above. This is invaluable training.
1. Great, weeks spent learning about systems. Useful, if you can afford that training time on types you hope to fly one day. That said, it is a design requirement that the systems of an aircraft are described in the flight manual, (2x.1581 (c)). A flight manual will certainly be provided to you for aircraft you may fly - read and understand it. Generically, there are lots of publications describing systems. You don't need to take a college course to learn them if you're motivated.

2. Performance, yes, you must learn it, again, well presented in the flight manual, section 5, and many easily available publications. A classroom knowledge of performance is nice, but it will not replace the hands and feet skills to fly the aircraft so it achieves the performance. Many time I have flown with book smart pilots, who did not have the skill to get the performance out of the plane safely.

3. CRM - First, treat people as you would like them to treat you. Second, build the experience in yourself, by yourself, by which you make really good decisions in flight. As you do this, treat the people you meet as you would like to be treated. Follow your employer's policies, and work as a willing team member. Then, when you are in command of a crew, you will have the naturally gained experience to execute good CRM.

4. FMS, EFIS, VNAV "working" is not computer training - the people who built those systems have computer training. What you're talking about is learning to operate those systems. They ALL have operator's manuals for that. Don't let a college charge you a fortune to allow you to read flight manual supplements easily available to you. Going back to my first comment, with lots of flying the plane steam gauge experience, and a good knowledge of where I was going, and how I would like to get there, and the ability to fly it hands and feet, I have been able to read and learn those systems as needed to operate the plane safely.

5. Some simulator time is good, and I have lots. I have never flown any dual simulator, only ever solo left seat sim time: ATC 610, ATC 810, Twin Otter, Dash 7, and DC-8-63 (oh, and some things that Microsoft made, if you call them simulators). It was fun and educational, as no one has offered me left seat in a Dash 7 nor DC-8. But, sim time is very different from hand flying time, even in a light single.

When you fly something very modest, and poorly equipped, and build experience in many environments, and situations, your skills will be built immensely - particularly in decision making. This is very sadly missed in the college environment - they make the decisions for you. Yeah, yeah, I know that they tell you that they teach you decision making but do they let you do it? Not really - they hold the keys. Example: A few weeks back, my diligence told me that some upcoming flying I had would be best served with a quick checkout with an instructor, just an objective overview of my skills, and a letter for the insurance, as I was new to them. So I arrange an hour in a 172. The wind was something like 15G20 45 degrees or so off the runway heading. The instructor and I discussed this, and my comfort level (very comfortable). It was otherwise a fine day for flying. While I flew upper airwork, and three very nice circuits at Peterborough - all of Seneca's 172's sat idle on the apron. Apparently Seneca had decided that there was too much crosswind for training - at all, not even dual! If a student had used their own decision making to determine that the crosswind exceed their personal limits, okay. If an instructor felt that they could not teach in those conditions, pity that instructor. But, was the instructor making that decision? Or Seneca? It's not only at Seneca, I've flown into other training places, where the fleet was parked due to wind, and I was happy to fly in and out. Back, all those decades ago, wind was never regulated as a fly/don't fly that day as I trained, it was a discussion with the instructor before the flight - decision making training!

If you want a job flying planes - fly planes! Take classroom training as required to learn the ground skills, but fly planes, as PIC, and solo, as much as you can - whatever airplane you can find! As you fly, you will encounter situations where you have a question, or recognize the need for more cockpit technology - then, you'll be ready to learn it, and absorb the knowledge. In the mean time, if you're sitting in an expensive classroom, with limited piloting experience, and an instructor is pouring information into your head about systems, a lot of that information is overflowing, and not being absorbed - because there were no questions in your head, to which that was the answer!
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L39Guy
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by L39Guy »

Napoleon So Low wrote: Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:50 pm Spoken like a true shill. Your posts read like commercials for Seneca.
One of the things I really don't like on these forums is the name calling. Rather juvenile.

And no, I am not a shill for Seneca or any of the other flying colleges. I happen to fly with a lot of first rate pilots who happen to come from some very good training organizations (the military, Seneca, Mount Royal, etc). 99% of them are top drawer, the remaining 1% wankers but you'll get that in any group of individuals.

What has always impressed me is the knowledge and professionalism of these pilots - this is not to detract from others that don't come from any one of these formal, flying training schools but my experience has been that virtually to the man (and woman), you are dealing with a highly competent aviator. Like any skill, competence comes from learning the basics early and properly then applying then thereafter. That is what the military or an integrated training organization like Seneca, Mount Royal provides. For those that do not do an integrated training program but instead get their flying training piecemeal, a private certificate here, the multi-engine there, etc they do not get an integrated training and that is what the 1 year Seneca program provides, a mechanism to fill in the gaps that a piecemeal training program does include.

But please, don't take my word for it as I am just a line pilot in a major airline. Ask the employers or better yet go to their websites to see what they are looking for as I have done and you will notice that they seek pilots with military or aviation college credentials. For those that lust over working in the US; if you want a major airline job you need an education, normally a full college degree so Canada is not unique in demanding post secondary training.

The keen reader might notice that I am speaking (or writing) past the naysayers and I do that intentionally. My target audience are those that are looking for some free advice if they are trying to decide how to go about checking the boxes to get an airline gig. The hiring desires of the airlines are all on their websites and most of them include the aviation college degree or diploma. For those without one but believe they should get one to become more marketable to an airline but already have a commercial pilot license and a post secondary education, the 8 month Seneca program ticks that box, in addition to providing valuable training.
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Napoleon So Low
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by Napoleon So Low »

You are here to provide free advice, and you have ten posts. Admirable altruism. :prayer:
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by rookiepilot »

L39Guy wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:16 am
But please, don't take my word for it as I am just a line pilot in a major airline.
I'm a disinterested bystander, but above you say you do hiring for your engineering practice. Also a line pilot?
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L39Guy
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by L39Guy »

I am a Boeing 787 Captain (you can probably guess which airline) that also has an engineering practice involved with advanced satellite-based navigation applications.
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jschnurr
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by jschnurr »

L39Guy wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:16 am One of the things I really don't like on these forums is the name calling. Rather juvenile.

And no, I am not a shill for Seneca or any of the other flying colleges. I happen to fly with a lot of first rate pilots who happen to come from some very good training organizations (the military, Seneca, Mount Royal, etc). 99% of them are top drawer, the remaining 1% wankers but you'll get that in any group of individuals.
Your credibility, sir, is now less than the 737 Max.
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by ant_321 »

L39Guy wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:16 am
Napoleon So Low wrote: Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:50 pm Spoken like a true shill. Your posts read like commercials for Seneca.
One of the things I really don't like on these forums is the name calling. Rather juvenile.

And no, I am not a shill for Seneca or any of the other flying colleges. I happen to fly with a lot of first rate pilots who happen to come from some very good training organizations (the military, Seneca, Mount Royal, etc). 99% of them are top drawer, the remaining 1% wankers but you'll get that in any group of individuals.

What has always impressed me is the knowledge and professionalism of these pilots - this is not to detract from others that don't come from any one of these formal, flying training schools but my experience has been that virtually to the man (and woman), you are dealing with a highly competent aviator. Like any skill, competence comes from learning the basics early and properly then applying then thereafter. That is what the military or an integrated training organization like Seneca, Mount Royal provides. For those that do not do an integrated training program but instead get their flying training piecemeal, a private certificate here, the multi-engine there, etc they do not get an integrated training and that is what the 1 year Seneca program provides, a mechanism to fill in the gaps that a piecemeal training program does include.

But please, don't take my word for it as I am just a line pilot in a major airline. Ask the employers or better yet go to their websites to see what they are looking for as I have done and you will notice that they seek pilots with military or aviation college credentials. For those that lust over working in the US; if you want a major airline job you need an education, normally a full college degree so Canada is not unique in demanding post secondary training.

The keen reader might notice that I am speaking (or writing) past the naysayers and I do that intentionally. My target audience are those that are looking for some free advice if they are trying to decide how to go about checking the boxes to get an airline gig. The hiring desires of the airlines are all on their websites and most of them include the aviation college degree or diploma. For those without one but believe they should get one to become more marketable to an airline but already have a commercial pilot license and a post secondary education, the 8 month Seneca program ticks that box, in addition to providing valuable training.
You are spreading false information. An 8 month diploma won’t tick any boxes. Every airline job I have applied for in the past that cared about post secondary asks if you have a college diploma or degree. In order to get into this program you need a post secondary education so you would already tick that box. Airlines typically don’t care what your education is in. Bachelor in tiddlywinks? Perfect, welcome aboard.
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by L39Guy »

jschnurr wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:53 am
L39Guy wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:16 am One of the things I really don't like on these forums is the name calling. Rather juvenile.

And no, I am not a shill for Seneca or any of the other flying colleges. I happen to fly with a lot of first rate pilots who happen to come from some very good training organizations (the military, Seneca, Mount Royal, etc). 99% of them are top drawer, the remaining 1% wankers but you'll get that in any group of individuals.
Your credibility, sir, is now less than the 737 Max.
And you're one of the 1 per cent. You just proved my point, thanks.
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jt8d
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by jt8d »

Glad you learned how to spell "Seneca" L39.. kind of alarming that you can't proof-read the title to the thread you created.. that says a LOT

Below are the copy and paste AC requirements...
...

Pilot applications far exceed job vacancies, so preference is given to candidates with qualifications beyond the basic requirements. Examples of desirable additional qualifications include, but are not limited to:

-Graduates of a three or four year diploma/degree program from a college or university
-Aviation College degree or diploma
-Commercial or military flight experience
-Jet and/or glass cockpit experience

So it looks like if you already have a 3 or 4 year degree /diploma.. you are golden! So why are you pitching this silly 8 month SEENCA course to degree holders?! They've already ticked off that box! There's no box for 8 month airline ops course lol.. you sure you aren't working for Seenca?
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C.W.E.
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by C.W.E. »

You are here to provide free advice, and you have ten posts. Admirable altruism. :prayer:
\\

Not to mention his smug self serving attitude.

As to pilot decision making, judging from his posts here I have decided I would not want to be crewed with him...period.....hows that for PDM? :mrgreen:
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by B208 »

L39Guy wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:28 am I am a Boeing 787 Captain (you can probably guess which airline) that also has an engineering practice involved with advanced satellite-based navigation applications.
Is that you DP?
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L39Guy
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by L39Guy »

jt8d wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:44 pm Glad you learned how to spell "Seneca" L39.. kind of alarming that you can't proof-read the title to the thread you created.. that says a LOT

Below are the copy and paste AC requirements...
...

Pilot applications far exceed job vacancies, so preference is given to candidates with qualifications beyond the basic requirements. Examples of desirable additional qualifications include, but are not limited to:

-Graduates of a three or four year diploma/degree program from a college or university
-Aviation College degree or diploma
-Commercial or military flight experience
-Jet and/or glass cockpit experience

So it looks like if you already have a 3 or 4 year degree /diploma.. you are golden! So why are you pitching this silly 8 month SEENCA course to degree holders?! They've already ticked off that box! There's no box for 8 month airline ops course lol.. you sure you aren't working for Seenca?
Those that live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Thank you for pointing out a spelling error in a post of mine. But give me some credit, I spelled "Seneca" correctly twice later in that post.

But speaking of proof reading, lets take a look at your contributions to this forum. In none of your twelve contributions so far have you been able to put together two paragraphs of thought just lots of drive-by hits on others. In addition to this, you seem to be unable to put a full sentence together and end it with a "." rather than a "...". Or is that morse code?

But there's more!

"And what would be a reasonable pay for a 250TT pilot? If you have no experience to bring to the table, you don't deserve some 50K salary as a 400TT FO.. these very 2 regionals have perpetuated the race to the bottom... so why is everyone wanting to jump onboard? Tell me.. why is a 2 year bond so hard to swallow? It's 2 years!! How people can't fulfill a 1-year commitment is ridiculous... actions like this bring down the whole industry. I've seen it happen over n over and have nil respect for these kind of people... who were so grateful to get that job but.. but.. grass is always greener? NO

... anyway.. rant over... Seems like the industry is breeding more Air France Bonins day by day.... sighhh.. don't be in such a rush people!" "Onboard" is actually spelled "on board". Also, you capitization after ... is inconsistent.

"I'm shocked how pilots these days have no integrity... and no patience... jumping on bonds to go regional ASAP before they've truly learned the fundamentals of flying! Sad state of affairs... if I were an employer and took a gamble on you as a new hire 250TT know-nothing.. where the f@#$ is the gratitude? Unless the flying is ultra sketch and you have wild safety concerns... you owe it to your employer to finish your bond.. maybe i'm just old fashioned and believe in a solid reference. You really shouldn't be applying anywhere til your obligation to your employer is nearly fulfilled. Take some time to smell the roses kids... seems like most pilots lack the true passion for flying and just wanna wear an airline cap for instagram.". "i'm" should be "I'm", "til" should be "until". Instagram is a proper name and should be capitalized.

"Sure seems to be less emphasis on hands and feet skills these days... now Jazz has 1000TT system operators that don't know how to land a plane in marginal wind conditions hehe.. i say again.. 100 hours in a sim and no type rating out of it is a money grab! Might as well go out there and get a flight instructor rating with that cash... (since you'd already have a degree anyway). So basically if you take this course, the main benefit is you can check off the FMS experience box... yayyee! Original poster seems to be under the impression that jazz is openly taking 250TT pilots... last i checked, you had to be crème de la crop from the class... so don't bank on Jazz being your first employer as a pilot! I guess Seneca sold you a different story about their post-post-secondary course haha... FMS is easily learned in an initial course with good trainers! Kids these days are pretty tech savvy... if you have the degree to qualify you for this silly program.. then you already have a leg up on most on the CV pile... there's no point in this program at all unless your mommy and daddy are paying for it." "i say again" should be "I say again" as I is capitalized. Jazz should be capitalized

"Are you kidding me? An 8 month diploma! Ever heard the saying GO BIG OR GO HOME? Either get a 3 or 4 year diploma/degree or don't bother wasting your with this lil post secondary course.. who the heck needs 100 hours in some generic sim? You should atleast come out with a dash type rating after this program

To the OP learn to spell Seneca... especially if you work for them as a recruiter lol.. hard to take your recommendation seriously" What's a "lil"? Is that little or lil'? What's "atleast"?

"Yet that stupid "Where to begin" thread still exists.. what a waste of interweb! 777 O.P. is some sort of Troll that has yet to make a reply.. avcanada.. can you delete that silly thread?""Troll" should not be capitalized

That's enough although each every one of your "contributions" to this website has spelling and grammar errors.

More troubling, however, is that as I look at your posts, you appear to be a very angry person. Lots of vitrol, lots of disparaging remarks, lots of put-downs, lots of jealousy. Sad.
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by L39Guy »

[/quote]You are spreading false information. An 8 month diploma won’t tick any boxes. Every airline job I have applied for in the past that cared about post secondary asks if you have a college diploma or degree. In order to get into this program you need a post secondary education so you would already tick that box. Airlines typically don’t care what your education is in. Bachelor in tiddlywinks? Perfect, welcome aboard.[/quote]

I am afraid you are ill-informed. One of the 2018 cadets who did the post-secondary/commercial license, 8 month Seneca program got hired at Jazz with 260 hours total time and is flying in the right seat of an RJ. He never would have got looked at by Jazz without the Seneca program but he did and now he is flying an RJ. That should tell you something.

To be clear, this program is well suited for just that type of pilot, relatively low time with the post-secondary/commercial license already. As I said earlier, if one wants to take a pass on going up north or some other operator to get time and go straight to a Jazz or other regional airline then this is a program that one should check out. It is not for everyone however my objective is to make people who are on this forum aware of its presence. They can do their own research and see if its suits them.
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by rookiepilot »

L39Guy wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:33 pm One of the 2018 cadets who did the post-secondary/commercial license, 8 month Seneca program got hired at Jazz with 260 hours total time and is flying in the right seat of an RJ. That should tell you something.
.....It tells me if true, to tell my friends -- don't book an airline flight on an RJ!

Seriously.
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by jt8d »

Umm L39.. thanks for the proof reading bud but seems like you're still missing the point... comprehend much? Rest assured I know how to spell when it matters. I called you out because you couldn't spell the bloody name of your son's program that you are pitching. LOL. If you start a thread, please proof read the title. I'm not going to knit pick the body of your message... who does that? Lol

umm I'm not angry.. hehe.. just saying it how it is.. I'm in a very happy place in life. I actually feel very sorry for your 250TT example RJ kid... will never get to experience flying say a 206.. king air etc.. only flying into ILS airports. What's a circling approach? My point was that you make it sound like if you take this course you stand a darn good chance at going to Jizz with 250TT... not the case bud... not the case

Ps. Save your wise-guy talk for your son... I live in a brick house
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by L39Guy »

rookiepilot wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:47 pm
L39Guy wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:33 pm One of the 2018 cadets who did the post-secondary/commercial license, 8 month Seneca program got hired at Jazz with 260 hours total time and is flying in the right seat of an RJ. That should tell you something.
.....It tells me if true, to tell my friends -- don't book an airline flight on an RJ!

Seriously.
Better not book on a Dash 8, Q400, B737 either as Jazz, Sunwings, (and I believe but not entirely sure) Porter and Encore hire straight out of Seneca and Mount Royal. These carriers obviously think highly of the product that these and other schools produce.

I spoke with a TC inspector that monitors Jazz and Sunwings and he told me that these young aviators do an excellent job...just goes to show you that solid training can make up for fewer hours.
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by PilotDAR »

I spoke with a TC inspector that monitors Jazz and Sunwings and he told me that these young aviators do an excellent job
Which would be one opinion , though amazingly general ('sounds like a President I can think of).

I have be told opposing opinions from equally authoritative sources. I accept the reality that these lower time pilots are right seat more and more, but I'm not relaxed about it.

To the fresh graduates of such programs reading this, consider more than one opinion about flying education and experience, as you build yours....
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Re: Seneca College Airline Pilot Flight Operations Diploma

Post by iflyforpie »

L39Guy wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:14 pm Better not book on a Dash 8, Q400, B737 either as Jazz, Sunwings, (and I believe but not entirely sure) Porter and Encore hire straight out of Seneca and Mount Royal. These carriers obviously think highly of the product that these and other schools produce.
Sigh..... and it shows.

I'm sure their FMS button pushing and FMC SPD | LNAV | VNAV PATH skills are just awesome, but as far as airmanship, communications, airlaw, and plain situational awareness go they are sorely lacking.

Like a Dash 8 I saw that decided to go down a closed taxiway, probably wondering why we took another taxiway and backtracked in front of them, and got stuck in a place they couldn't turn around.

Or a SAAB that asked for the visual, then when asked if they had the field in sight they said they didn't.

Or a 737 that asked for a shortcut from the STAR to the ILS, and centre asked if they were going to make it, and they said they were, and two minutes later are asking for orbits because they can't make it.

In these situations.... knowing how to push buttons on something I learned to use in a week and mastered in a month after flying planes made before I was born isn't going to help you.

The worst thing is, this course doesn't even tick the box that airlines for some reason so desperately want.

It's a money grab... plain and simple.
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Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
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