Sault Aviatoin, is it as bad as many have posted..

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SSM2019
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Sault Aviatoin, is it as bad as many have posted..

Post by SSM2019 » Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:07 pm

Hello Everyone,

So, over the last few months I have been researching . This includes talking to many current students as well as online posts.
What I have learned is this...
  • Some students leaving the program as they were tired of waiting for flight time for weeks..
  • Flight training a full (1) year behind schedule. Second years wrote their PPL written June of 2018..and still not done!
  • Students given up their "Integration" certificate so they can be farmed out to other flight clubs to finish a rating. Ex Multi rating in 1/4 time.
  • Students who just finished their second year, that is semester 5, of the 7 Semester program, are still working on their PPL. Should be finishing their Commercial at that point.
  • Students waiting up to 2 months for flights, with many waiting 3 weeks or longer repeatedly the last 2 semesters.
  • Students only flying 1 to 2 times a month, some only(2) times in 3 months on average the last 2 semesters.
  • Administration, Mapp I believe, made changes mid stream in the program forcing some students out of their last years academics for 12 months.
  • Second year students going into their last year given the "choice" to stay over this semester to TRY to finish their private lessons from year 1 or told they can not complete their last year
  • Students put in financial hardship because of the above changes. This summer was not suppose to be mandatory so some were counting on going back home to work to pay for their last year. Not really a "choice" that the administration says it is..when you can not pay or have money to live for your last year!!
This is only some of the issues from reading. Seems some parents from online reading where getting together and thinking about their options...

Speaking to a current student, he said over 1/2 of his instructors failed or part failed there PPL recommendation flight texts. So many had issues that the school had to extend their deadline to enroll in the first year flight program. If you fail, you have to pay the school to take that flight semester over again about $3500. As well, you can NOT enroll in your last year classes for 12 months.

Not sure how any of the second year students will finish what is left in a year..this will lose their Integration..
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lownslow
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Re: Sault Aviatoin, is it as bad as many have posted..

Post by lownslow » Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:29 pm

One telling data point might be to see if anyone in any class is on time. If so, why?
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flyingcanuck
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Re: Sault Aviatoin, is it as bad as many have posted..

Post by flyingcanuck » Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:51 pm

There are definitely students who finish on time. Most of them in my class when I was there finished because they were hard workers, showed up at the airport everytime they were scheduled and hustled for flights.

Some people take it easy or just relaxed a flight here and there but wonder where they went wrong and are behind.

As to your list there. Yeah that's mostly accurate, the top brass liked to change their minds on how things were done every now.ams again. My year we had to redo the PPL test cause we all failed because they gave us the wrong maps/appendecies... the school does take too many students for the capacity $$$

Overall I think the quality is still high, but they don't do much to help students along and it ends up delaying them. Plus winter in the Soo sucks.
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keepflying
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Re: Sault Aviatoin, is it as bad as many have posted..

Post by keepflying » Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:00 pm

Fellow Aviators..
Agree as well, the list pretty much tells it all and accurate. Just completed our 5th semester/second year, should be working on finishing our Commercial as per the schools outline. Instead 95% of the class were just trying to fishing our Private that we started from last spring 2018. I myself waited 81 days the last semester for a flight, roommates 75 days and 77 days. Suppose to be flying 2 times/week. Was more like 2-3 weeks between flight training. Semester 4 and 5, got in 12 flights Total...12 flights for the full academic year 2, crazy. That was pretty must the same for most.

This Mapp guy/Chair of program is a real winner. Changes our program with what seemed to be a complete disregard with how it was effect us. Comes in one day and tells us all we have to stay this summer or we can not register for the last year in the programs academics in Sept 2019. He did say we had to option of staying or going. Stay and finish the Semester 3 flight lessons started some 16 month ago or not stay but we could not register for our last years classes.This would mean we would have to wait a full year for classes. Some of us are out of funds, and needed to work to pay for our last year. OSAP is suppose to be cutting loans so not sure how to make this work. This did not seem to bother Mapp at all....said we all have to make our own decisions. Guess it is our fault flying is a year behind and they have to many students in the program. But hey, they getting funding per student so, guess that is in their best interest.

What was said about students not doing well on their flights is 100% true. Instructors are working hard, but flying so inconsistent the last 10 months it is just hard to stay current.

It really is just a mess at the moment..almost 2 years now done, over $27,000 spent in total and still not even a private to show for it!
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Last edited by keepflying on Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Flightlinesault
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Re: Sault Aviatoin, is it as bad as many have posted..

Post by Flightlinesault » Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:12 am

Morning all..
All of those above points are very true... and then some.
Been working on finishing my private at sault college since March 2018, some 16 months now. :shock:
Most of my class is in the same spot. School has been pushing us to finish our PPL, or told we can not enrol in our last year classes till Sept 2020. Academic classes are are just to far ahead now to safely/effectively continue flying. So many had issues passing their pre flight tests
My second year think I flew 9-10 times.. :-o :( :(


Starting our last year classes soon, year 3, and just finishing year 1 flying. PPL.
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abrarabbu
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Re: Sault Aviatoin, is it as bad as many have posted..

Post by abrarabbu » Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:18 pm

Good day everyone
I have decided to accept offer at sault as this was only program i applied. I have not known about these issues last year and confederation was listed out because of no IFR
Now even with all negative reviews I am a bit concerned, but, I am a mature person who is changing career from IT. Hence, I will be serious about academics.
Now to question:
I am researching on renting in Soo. I was told that flight school is at airport and simulator and classes in Soo building. Does anyone have any recommendation where most time is spent in. My plan is to be in simulator as much time as possible if not doing flying.
How does flight and simulator schedule work. Is it open and students can do as much as they want or is it fixed time or scheduled time
Also if any of you would be kind enough to refer any rentals or any 2019 intake looking for a place?
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thruster
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Re: Sault Aviatoin, is it as bad as many have posted..

Post by thruster » Sat Jul 13, 2019 2:59 pm

Hello,

It is a little strange to me that all three accounts were made within days of each other, all three are saying the same things and typing the same way. I know two individuals in this program, both have just completed their first year and both have completed their PPL. I myself will be attending in September as well. In the end, you have to work hard.
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thruster
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Re: Sault Aviatoin, is it as bad as many have posted..

Post by thruster » Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:00 pm

abrarabbu wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:18 pm
Good day everyone
I have decided to accept offer at sault as this was only program i applied. I have not known about these issues last year and confederation was listed out because of no IFR
Now even with all negative reviews I am a bit concerned, but, I am a mature person who is changing career from IT. Hence, I will be serious about academics.
Now to question:
I am researching on renting in Soo. I was told that flight school is at airport and simulator and classes in Soo building. Does anyone have any recommendation where most time is spent in. My plan is to be in simulator as much time as possible if not doing flying.
How does flight and simulator schedule work. Is it open and students can do as much as they want or is it fixed time or scheduled time
Also if any of you would be kind enough to refer any rentals or any 2019 intake looking for a place?
The school will provide transport to and from the airport via a college van
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keepflying
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Re: Sault Aviatoin, is it as bad as many have posted..

Post by keepflying » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:13 pm

Hello abrarabbu
Congratulations on being accepted. However, you really should rethink the school you are going to. There are post on here, and other sites about just how bad things are at Sault College aviation right now. When students toss in the towel and call it quiets, tired of waiting weeks/month between flights that should be a red flag!
As posted above, our class will be starting their last year in Sept 2019 (Year 3). We are trying to finish out PPL from early last year. Have not even flown the year 2 flight lesions yet. The academics are a full school year ahead of flying lessons.
I know 3rd year students that took 6 months to do a multi that only takes weeks at a flight school/club. It would be cheaper and MUCH faster in the long run to go to another school. Then, do the Multi IFR on your own when you are done.

Anyway, if you do go, just understand that you may not be flying nearly as much as you think. I would take a pass on this program for 1-2 years till they figure things out.
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jetstreams
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Re: Sault Aviatoin, is it as bad as many have posted..

Post by jetstreams » Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:45 am

Quick Post.

I am in a house with 3 other Sault College Aviation students. We are all going into our finial year of the program next month, Sept 2019. We are all still working, trying to do our Private PPL Flight test. :shock: :shock:

This is pretty much the norm for my entire class...at this pace will have taken 17 months to get our PPL from when we started the flight training in early 2018 :oops: :oops:
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BBsault
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Re: Sault Aviatoin, is it as bad as many have posted..

Post by BBsault » Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:23 pm

Just my 2 cents.

The above is all true!! Going into my 3rd year in a few weeks. At the moment should be done my Private by the end of this month.fingers crossed..yes...my PPL after 2 years. This is not on the instructors, but decisions that were made by the school To many students allowed in for the aircraft they have.

No one I know in my class was done their PPL going into this month, Aug. Who would of thought, that it would take 2 of the 3 years of the program, and over $25,000 to get a PPL. We should have written our Commercial last April, but the class was so far behind, school said they are looking at Dec/Jan for the test.
This is NOT the education I signed up for, paid for!!
Time for transport to step in for an audit of the program... :smt014
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lownslow
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Re: Sault Aviatoin, is it as bad as many have posted..

Post by lownslow » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:32 pm

If the above is true... Jesus.
BBsault wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:23 pm
Time for transport to step in for an audit of the program... :smt014
This is not Transport’s concern, unless they’re also operating illegally. TC has no mandate for on time. I don’t know if there is specifically a branch of government that keeps post-secondary educators in check but that’s what I’d be looking for.
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7ECA
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Re: Sault Aviatoin, is it as bad as many have posted..

Post by 7ECA » Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:22 pm

The Superintendent of Private Career Colleges would be someone to contact with complaints.

The Ministry of Training, Colleges and Universities; another.

Finally, the Office of the Auditor General of Ontario.

If you're going to complain, be prepared to get kicked out of the school. These "institutions" have a way of being a bit vindictive when people try and derail the gravy train.
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jeffrogoodman
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Re: Sault Aviatoin, is it as bad as many have posted..

Post by jeffrogoodman » Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:40 pm

Hello, my father was involved with Aviation and Fire most of his life and made several great contacts over the years, in which he has lost contact. We are looking for an MNR pilot Bill Howe from Thunder Bay. I ran into the gentleman at a hair salon and didn't get his number. My father is visiting Thunder Bay now and we are looking to contact him. Can anyone help? My # 807-252-9843
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BBsault
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Re: Sault Aviatoin, is it as bad as many have posted..

Post by BBsault » Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:18 am

Good Info 7ECA

All I know is that something should be done so those looking into attending the program know what they are getting into. Saying nothing and going with the flow only makes things worse for all. We are, fingers crossed, the commercial pilots of tomorrow. We just want to have a solid consistent foundation of training in our early years. If the school wishes to act unprofessional as you suggested they may, then I am guessing some parents would consider legal action would be in order. I for one hope this is below Sault College and work on the program. They can start by NOT taken in so many students for the 8-9 aircraft they have. As you suggested, this program is a gravy train for the school as they get funding from the government per student in the program. But when you have a 45-55% graduation rate in their aviation program (this is posted online in the schools records) then maybe there is a reason for that.
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172ReliefPilot
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Re: Sault Aviatoin, is it as bad as many have posted..

Post by 172ReliefPilot » Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:19 pm

Feel bad for everyone going through this mess. Hope it gets sorted out.
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cheeky cough
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Re: Sault Aviatoin, is it as bad as many have posted..

Post by cheeky cough » Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:53 pm

The lack of flight instructors is affecting the future of Canadian Aviation.
One cannot blame them for wanting to move on.
A solution needs to be found.
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Re: Sault Aviatoin, is it as bad as many have posted..

Post by PilotDAR » Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:34 am

A solution needs to be found.
Who should take responsibility for this cheeky cough?
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Re: Sault Aviatoin, is it as bad as many have posted..

Post by rookiepilot » Sat Aug 17, 2019 8:56 am

BBsault wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:18 am

They can start by NOT taken in so many students for the 8-9 aircraft they have. As you suggested, this program is a gravy train for the school as they get funding from the government per student in the program.
Uh huh....... :shock:
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Re: Sault Aviatoin, is it as bad as many have posted..

Post by Victory » Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:23 am

BBsault wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:18 am
But when you have a 45-55% graduation rate in their aviation program (this is posted online in the schools records) then maybe there is a reason for that.
It used to be like a 15% graduation rate. They way I hear that the students complained that too many people were failing out so the school lowered their standards and now they are in this mess where there are too many students to complete the program in a timely manner. The school probably now feels like this is what you asked for.
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cheeky cough
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Re: Sault Aviatoin, is it as bad as many have posted..

Post by cheeky cough » Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:10 pm

[quote=PilotDAR post_id=1087590 time=1566045294 user_id=39402]
[quote]A solution needs to be found.[/quote]

Who should take responsibility for this cheeky cough?
[/quote]

All hiring is dictated by the major airlines . Pilots want to move up the food chain.
AC and Westjet will have to do something.

They are still a bit smug that they can still get applications. There are a lot of expats coming home. The problem is in the next 10-15 years when even my generation start retiring.

Will it take a merger of the two remaining carriers to have enough pilots in ten years?

The problem then becomes how they select candidates. Nepotism/affirmative action hiring will become a problem. Any keen person should have the opportunity to advance.
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Re: Sault Aviatoin, is it as bad as many have posted..

Post by digits_ » Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:45 pm

cheeky cough wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:10 pm
All hiring is dictated by the major airlines . Pilots want to move up the food chain.
Some will. Quite a few would stick with instructing if it was a career move. That means, stable company, work 16 days a months and a salary that could be lower than the airlines, but still decent if you want to retain experience. I think other topics mentioned around 85k/year? Something like that would retain experienced instructors.

Not working 26 days a month for 35k. But it looks like those days will be behind us soon.
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Re: Sault Aviatoin, is it as bad as many have posted..

Post by Shinyjetsyndrome » Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:15 pm

keepflying wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:00 pm
Fellow Aviators..
Agree as well, the list pretty much tells it all and accurate. Just completed our 5th semester/second year, should be working on finishing our Commercial as per the schools outline. Instead 95% of the class were just trying to fishing our Private that we started from last spring 2018. I myself waited 81 days the last semester for a flight, roommates 75 days and 77 days. Suppose to be flying 2 times/week. Was more like 2-3 weeks between flight training. Semester 4 and 5, got in 12 flights Total...12 flights for the full academic year 2, crazy. That was pretty must the same for most.

This Mapp guy/Chair of program is a real winner. Changes our program with what seemed to be a complete disregard with how it was effect us. Comes in one day and tells us all we have to stay this summer or we can not register for the last year in the programs academics in Sept 2019. He did say we had to option of staying or going. Stay and finish the Semester 3 flight lessons started some 16 month ago or not stay but we could not register for our last years classes.This would mean we would have to wait a full year for classes. Some of us are out of funds, and needed to work to pay for our last year. OSAP is suppose to be cutting loans so not sure how to make this work. This did not seem to bother Mapp at all....said we all have to make our own decisions. Guess it is our fault flying is a year behind and they have to many students in the program. But hey, they getting funding per student so, guess that is in their best interest.

What was said about students not doing well on their flights is 100% true. Instructors are working hard, but flying so inconsistent the last 10 months it is just hard to stay current.

It really is just a mess at the moment..almost 2 years now done, over $27,000 spent in total and still not even a private to show for it!
As someone who didn’t make it through the Sault program, I agree that the college definitely has some issues, but let’s be real - you’re probably not being honest with yourself. If you put in work and make yourself available to fly, you should have little trouble staying on time in the program. You will have to go to the airport on days you’re not scheduled to fly to scam flights and you need to be organized and self disciplined with school to make sure you’re as free as possible. The program is far from a walk in the park and you need to put in effort. As for currency, it’s up to you to review and do what you can to stay current. There were times when I was at the Sault where I flew once a month and I once had 15 flights cancelled in a row because of weather. It sucks, but you can still make it work if you really are committed.

It might be a bit too late for you to turn things around though in your specific case. Once you fall behind that far, it’s almost impossible to recover in a reasonable amount of time. If I were you I’d leave and go somewhere else because you’re wasting time and money. I was in the same boat. 2.5 years in with no PPL. I was hardly getting scheduled and I was not able to take half the third year classes. I called it quits, smartened up, and did an entire aviation diploma somewhere else and still finished quicker than some people in my year at the Sault. Timing was great too cause the next fall was that big strike with Ontario colleges... I would recommend just finishing privately though. Some of these regular flight schools have the same opportunities as the colleges ie: Jazz, Encore, etc.
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BBsault
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Re: Sault Aviatoin, is it as bad as many have posted..

Post by BBsault » Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:19 pm

Just adding this link to the conversation.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=133917&p=1087418#p1087330
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BBsault
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Re: Sault Aviatoin, is it as bad as many have posted..

Post by BBsault » Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:27 pm

Just adding this link to the conversation.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=133917&p=1087418#p1087330

As well was reading a post from another unsatisfied student on another site, reddit.
dhc8driver

“”Mar 2, 2019
Run away. Look into Confed. All my friends who went to Sault had crazy crazy stories of how the school is run.””
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