This forum often contains suggestions of buying your own plane to do flight training in. I have given this suggestion myself on a number of occasions.
In September, 2017, I purchased a 1976 Cessna 150 to provide training to my kids. The plane was high time, but well maintained, regularly flown and in good cosmetic shape. I got a great deal as the plane was a repo from a flight school and I was in the right place at the right time.
Since that time,two of my friends bought into the plane to get their PPL. I had an engine overhaul done last year, that was anticipated when I purchased the plane, even though in hindsight, I should have run that engine into the ground (*see below for details). The overhaul cost is NOT included in these figures.
I recently crunched the numbers on the fixed costs for this airplane. Keep in mind some of the costs, such as insurance/annual will carry through until September, 2020. Also, I do maintenance properly- I don't have deferred snags. Here's the data.
Maintenance: $8008 (includes annual inspections, oil, unscheduled maintenance, Out of phase, etc.)
Parking $1905 ($75/mo outside tie down)
Insurance: $3274 (was $854/yr at $20k hull value and experienced pilots, now ~$1500/yr at $40k hull value and 4 student pilots on the policy)
Misc: $419 (NavCanada fee, fuselage cover)
TOTAL: $13597
Hours flown: 184 hrs air time (add ~20% to figure out flight time--> 220 hrs)
Fixed costs: $74/hr AIR, ~$62/hr FLT
So, if you're thinking about doing your flight training by buying your own airplane, it still may be a good idea, but if you add in the price of fuel, risk premium, overhaul amount, opportunity cost, you're at the rental rate. Having the plane on my own would likely not have been worthwhile, but with partners, it's doable, especially if my son ends up with a CPL.
* A note on the overhaul: SMOH on the engine was ~3000 hrs. The plane ran fantastic and got POH numbers for cruise and climb. Compression and oil consumption was excellent. I decided to overhaul the engine because I figured it would be best to have some parts (crank, cam) still usable. It was a bad decision. The overhaul cost $27,000 (including cylinders, mags, install, shipping, tax). Following the overhaul, I spent over $1000 troubleshooting what turned out to be a bad mag which was covered under warranty, but the labour cost to troubleshoot the mag I had to pay for. The engine ran better at 3000 hrs pre-overhaul than it does now (~100 SMOH). I'm down about 50 RPM static compared to pre-overhaul
Flight training in your own plane - costs
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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: Flight training in your own plane - costs
Bede
I think to paint a complete picture you have to include the engine overhaul costs because the aircraft will not be worth $ 27,000 more now that you have done the engine. Realistically you would get maybe 1/3 of you money back if you sold it today. So the delta of $ 18,000 needs to be counted against the hourly cost of how many hours you flew before the aircraft was sold. worst case is you sell it tomorrow so $ 18,000 divided by 220 hrs equals an additional $ 82 per hour. The absolute best case is you fly the new engine to TBO (1800 hrs) which drops the per hour premium to $15 per hour or $89/hr Air - $77/hr Flt
My personal observation is that the only engines that make it well past TBO are commercial airplanes because they fly almost everyday. Lack of use is what kills piston engines and almost all private aircraft don't fly enough. Continental for instance says that the TBO is predicated on the aircraft flying a minimum of 40 hrs a month.
RE: "save by buying your own airplane instead of renting to do your training" idea.
Here is the story of a fellow I met once that bought a C 150 with an on condition engine to use to build up his time. It was pretty ugly with chipped faded paint and a trashed interior but it "only" cost him 18 K. Unfortunately after about 20 hours the engine started running very roughly. When the AME pulled the screen it was full of metal, the engine was toast. His AME found another high time engine but the engine mount was cracked and the carb air box needed a repair etc etc.
He was lucky in that it only cost him 10 K to get back in the air (an overhauled engine installed would have been over 25 K), then his radio died and the radio shop said it was too old to repair. He got another unit off E-bay but it never worked, then he lucked out and found a working unit for $1000 but he lost a month of summer flying screwing around, then he needed a new shimmy damper, then new brake discs, then a new elevator trim cable.........He finally finished his CPL and then tried to sell his airplane.
A year later it was still for sale as it was just another one of the many beater ugly beater 150's on the market. By then he was desperate so he took a low ball 12 K just to get some money back. Bottom line when all his costs were totaled the aircraft cost him $ 295 an hour plus what he paid for his instructor.....
Finding a good small aircraft is becoming harder and harder and there are hardly any decent OK not supper pretty but good solid serviceable airplanes.
The market seems to have stratified into two extremes. Either aircraft are junk that has been neglected for years and now the owner is trying to get out from under big maintenance bills that are due, or they are cream puffs with everything done and priced accordingly. My personal advice is buy the top of the market, that is the airplane that somebody else has already spent the big bucks. Yes it will be expensive going in but still a lot less then doing the work yourself.
However to present a balanced viewpoint it is not impossible to do OK in this scenario. My first airplane was also a local C 150. which I bought it to teach my wife how to fly. I had heard through the airport grape vine that the owner was maybe thinking of selling so I talked to the AME who looked after it who was a friend of mine and while a bit faded the aircraft had 1100 hrs on a Continental Reman engine was flown regularly and the owner got stuff fixed when the aircraft broke. The owner accepted my unsolicited offer which was fair but not overly generous, and we flew it for 4 years and 300 hours and I sold it for $3500 more than I paid for it.
Bottom line is you go this route it is absolutely imperative you get good advice. Ignore any advice from someone who has not owned an aircraft, preferably several, they will not have a clue. Get a good AME working for you to do a pre-purchase on anything you are thinking of buying and be prepared to spend at least 500 dollars on the prebuy, it will be worth it in the long run. Be patient but be prepared to snap up a good airplane if one pops up and don't just read adverts. Go to airports and walk the tie down line and if you see something you like cold call the owner.
I think to paint a complete picture you have to include the engine overhaul costs because the aircraft will not be worth $ 27,000 more now that you have done the engine. Realistically you would get maybe 1/3 of you money back if you sold it today. So the delta of $ 18,000 needs to be counted against the hourly cost of how many hours you flew before the aircraft was sold. worst case is you sell it tomorrow so $ 18,000 divided by 220 hrs equals an additional $ 82 per hour. The absolute best case is you fly the new engine to TBO (1800 hrs) which drops the per hour premium to $15 per hour or $89/hr Air - $77/hr Flt
My personal observation is that the only engines that make it well past TBO are commercial airplanes because they fly almost everyday. Lack of use is what kills piston engines and almost all private aircraft don't fly enough. Continental for instance says that the TBO is predicated on the aircraft flying a minimum of 40 hrs a month.
RE: "save by buying your own airplane instead of renting to do your training" idea.
Here is the story of a fellow I met once that bought a C 150 with an on condition engine to use to build up his time. It was pretty ugly with chipped faded paint and a trashed interior but it "only" cost him 18 K. Unfortunately after about 20 hours the engine started running very roughly. When the AME pulled the screen it was full of metal, the engine was toast. His AME found another high time engine but the engine mount was cracked and the carb air box needed a repair etc etc.
He was lucky in that it only cost him 10 K to get back in the air (an overhauled engine installed would have been over 25 K), then his radio died and the radio shop said it was too old to repair. He got another unit off E-bay but it never worked, then he lucked out and found a working unit for $1000 but he lost a month of summer flying screwing around, then he needed a new shimmy damper, then new brake discs, then a new elevator trim cable.........He finally finished his CPL and then tried to sell his airplane.
A year later it was still for sale as it was just another one of the many beater ugly beater 150's on the market. By then he was desperate so he took a low ball 12 K just to get some money back. Bottom line when all his costs were totaled the aircraft cost him $ 295 an hour plus what he paid for his instructor.....
Finding a good small aircraft is becoming harder and harder and there are hardly any decent OK not supper pretty but good solid serviceable airplanes.
The market seems to have stratified into two extremes. Either aircraft are junk that has been neglected for years and now the owner is trying to get out from under big maintenance bills that are due, or they are cream puffs with everything done and priced accordingly. My personal advice is buy the top of the market, that is the airplane that somebody else has already spent the big bucks. Yes it will be expensive going in but still a lot less then doing the work yourself.
However to present a balanced viewpoint it is not impossible to do OK in this scenario. My first airplane was also a local C 150. which I bought it to teach my wife how to fly. I had heard through the airport grape vine that the owner was maybe thinking of selling so I talked to the AME who looked after it who was a friend of mine and while a bit faded the aircraft had 1100 hrs on a Continental Reman engine was flown regularly and the owner got stuff fixed when the aircraft broke. The owner accepted my unsolicited offer which was fair but not overly generous, and we flew it for 4 years and 300 hours and I sold it for $3500 more than I paid for it.
Bottom line is you go this route it is absolutely imperative you get good advice. Ignore any advice from someone who has not owned an aircraft, preferably several, they will not have a clue. Get a good AME working for you to do a pre-purchase on anything you are thinking of buying and be prepared to spend at least 500 dollars on the prebuy, it will be worth it in the long run. Be patient but be prepared to snap up a good airplane if one pops up and don't just read adverts. Go to airports and walk the tie down line and if you see something you like cold call the owner.
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TalkingPie
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Re: Flight training in your own plane - costs
Thank you, both, for sharing that information - very valuable for a new pilot that often finds myself trying to justify the purchase of my own airplane. The cost of renting hurts and the attraction of having a plane of one's own is high, but I'm glad to be informed of the costs of owning.
I wonder whether the Cessna premium might be getting too high to be worth it for a private owner. Yes, most FTUs use them almost exclusively, and I'm sure there are many good reasons for that, but to an uninformed observer PA-28s are starting to look like a good alternative for a private owner. For C150 money you get a plane with the space and performance closer to that of a 172, and although they weren't produced in the numbers of the Cessnas, there should still be enough of them around that parts and expertise should be in decent supply. Based on looking at classified ads, the supply of clean, maintained planes seems to be getting more plentiful for the Piper as the Cessnas are getting used up as trainers and time builders. Or am I completely off base?
Once again, I really appreciate the real-world data. To provide a little of my own (third-party anecdotal) data: My former instructor, who owns the FTU at my local aerodrome, has shared a number of stories of new pilots buying C150s and 172s for what seemed like good deals, and then being hit by 5 figure overhaul or repair costs shortly thereafter. I myself have seen some of these planes, often looking clean and well taken care of, sit for months or more in the hangar as the problems get shaken out. What I've taken away from talking with people who've done it is that it can be financially viable if you choose a good plane, are reasonably lucky, have at least one trustworthy partner to share costs with, and build your hours relatively quickly, reselling the plane without letting it sit too much. If nothing else, at least the values of solid trainer-type planes seem to be holding very well.
I wonder whether the Cessna premium might be getting too high to be worth it for a private owner. Yes, most FTUs use them almost exclusively, and I'm sure there are many good reasons for that, but to an uninformed observer PA-28s are starting to look like a good alternative for a private owner. For C150 money you get a plane with the space and performance closer to that of a 172, and although they weren't produced in the numbers of the Cessnas, there should still be enough of them around that parts and expertise should be in decent supply. Based on looking at classified ads, the supply of clean, maintained planes seems to be getting more plentiful for the Piper as the Cessnas are getting used up as trainers and time builders. Or am I completely off base?
Once again, I really appreciate the real-world data. To provide a little of my own (third-party anecdotal) data: My former instructor, who owns the FTU at my local aerodrome, has shared a number of stories of new pilots buying C150s and 172s for what seemed like good deals, and then being hit by 5 figure overhaul or repair costs shortly thereafter. I myself have seen some of these planes, often looking clean and well taken care of, sit for months or more in the hangar as the problems get shaken out. What I've taken away from talking with people who've done it is that it can be financially viable if you choose a good plane, are reasonably lucky, have at least one trustworthy partner to share costs with, and build your hours relatively quickly, reselling the plane without letting it sit too much. If nothing else, at least the values of solid trainer-type planes seem to be holding very well.
Re: Flight training in your own plane - costs
I fear that for most people, training in your own airplane is a very risky endeavour. Most people know nothing about airplanes when they start. It's hard to find a competent and trustworthy AME. They are usually fairly busy and not always eager to talk to a non-pilot to do an inspection on a plane that they may or may not buy.
As a student pilot, you usually don't know exactly what you will want in your airplane, or what is unnecessary. The value of a good gps might not be obvious until you start flying navigation flights. Or a fancy GPS might turn out to be useless, which once again could pop up as your flight training progresses.
If a student has a good network already (AME friends, pilot friends, instructor friends), then it might be a good option. For the majority of the aspiring pilots, I think the road is too risky.
Airplane ownership is great though, once you know what you want/need!
As a student pilot, you usually don't know exactly what you will want in your airplane, or what is unnecessary. The value of a good gps might not be obvious until you start flying navigation flights. Or a fancy GPS might turn out to be useless, which once again could pop up as your flight training progresses.
If a student has a good network already (AME friends, pilot friends, instructor friends), then it might be a good option. For the majority of the aspiring pilots, I think the road is too risky.
Airplane ownership is great though, once you know what you want/need!
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
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rookiepilot
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Re: Flight training in your own plane - costs
Horrible time to buy an aircraft IMO.
Better prices coming.
Better prices coming.
Re: Flight training in your own plane - costs
The problem is we have no idea when that will happen. Next year? In 5 years?rookiepilot wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:15 am Horrible time to buy an aircraft IMO.
Better prices coming.
Re: Flight training in your own plane - costs
Really, if you don't know anything about airplanes, you're better off in a flying school flying their planes.
If you're growing up in a flying community where you have parents or friends in a flying club, and are learning about planes along the way, you probably do know enough to get a deal on a used airplane that could be used for flight training. No reason it needs to be certified, either. You could find any number of amateur-builts that perform like a 150 but aren't a 150, and you can do your own maintenance. That $8008 cost? Remove any hourly rate you pay an AME.
Before you say that you have to factor in the cost of your time, no, you don't. The time is spent learning, vs learning nothing while paying an AME.
If you're growing up in a flying community where you have parents or friends in a flying club, and are learning about planes along the way, you probably do know enough to get a deal on a used airplane that could be used for flight training. No reason it needs to be certified, either. You could find any number of amateur-builts that perform like a 150 but aren't a 150, and you can do your own maintenance. That $8008 cost? Remove any hourly rate you pay an AME.
Before you say that you have to factor in the cost of your time, no, you don't. The time is spent learning, vs learning nothing while paying an AME.
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rookiepilot
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Re: Flight training in your own plane - costs
I'd need a cracker jax box degree to answer that.CpnCrunch wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:23 amThe problem is we have no idea when that will happen. Next year? In 5 years?rookiepilot wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:15 am Horrible time to buy an aircraft IMO.
Better prices coming.
Re: Flight training in your own plane - costs
What a pity you don't have even one of those, then.
Depends on the AME. Some are very happy to learn you a lot, while they work on your airplane, and they do a good job of educating you.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Re: Flight training in your own plane - costs
Fair point. That arrangement is not very common from what I understand, but it's good if you can get it.
Re: Flight training in your own plane - costs
That's why it's hard to generalize about "learning in your own plane". 90% of the experience (positive, negative) depends on the personalities and relationships between the various people involved. Good (and that opinion rightly is in the eye of the beholder) people in the airplane world are treasures, and need to be cherished.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Re: Flight training in your own plane - costs
Well, i'd still say it's easy to *generalize*. It's hard to be absolute about it though. I wouldn't say "never learn in your own plane", in fact i've recommended the exact opposite to a number of people and it's worked out swimmingly. But for 90% of the population, going to a flying school is the right choice... In general.
Re: Flight training in your own plane - costs
Right... it's hard to generalize in a way that's accurate and useful for the reader.
However people who take the time and trouble to read here, post, ask questions and consider their options are already not in the 90% of of the population.
Self evidently: there are not enough small aircraft in Canada for a large percentage of students to buy one, or a share in one, in which to learn to fly.But for 90% of the population, going to a flying school is the right choice... In general.
However people who take the time and trouble to read here, post, ask questions and consider their options are already not in the 90% of of the population.
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
Re: Flight training in your own plane - costs
Further to BPF's post, even with the engine past TBO, the price I got on the plane was still excellent.
I was anticipating a much cheaper overhaul as I got 3 new cylinders with the purchase. Unfortunately, the tags went missing somewhere in the repo process. Also, I needed 2 new mags as the existing one's had bearings incorrectly installed causing them to be loose and wearing on the case.
I was anticipating a much cheaper overhaul as I got 3 new cylinders with the purchase. Unfortunately, the tags went missing somewhere in the repo process. Also, I needed 2 new mags as the existing one's had bearings incorrectly installed causing them to be loose and wearing on the case.
