Can you train with a class 3 instructor in a experimental aircraft?

[Laythe]

For example, if I were to buy my own experimental, something like a rans s6 or kitfox/avid. Would I be able to do my PPL training in it assuming I hire a class 3 instructor, and if I ever go for a cpl could I use the hours gained in that aircraft towards my license?

[ahramin]

Yes, but you may have trouble finding an instructor.

[final28]

If you find an instructor you also want to make sure there is an examiner who will do your flight test(s).

[AirFrame]

It's extremely unlikely that you'd be permitted to do your ab initio training in an experimental aircraft. There is no Experimental-Training category.

But you could do your ab-initio training in an Amateur-Built aircraft.

[lownslow]

It's extremely unlikely that you'd be permitted to do your ab initio training in an experimental aircraft. There is no Experimental-Training category.

But you could do your ab-initio training in an Amateur-Built aircraft.

Or, less condescendingly, Canada and the United States have very different definitions for Experimental (and Ultralight BTW). Your proposed AvidFox would be registered as Amateur-Built in Canada, which is roughly equivalent to the US E-AB.

[praveen4143]

It's extremely unlikely that you'd be permitted to do your ab initio training in an experimental aircraft. There is no Experimental-Training category.

But you could do your ab-initio training in an Amateur-Built aircraft.

Umm... Isn't experimental the same as amateur-built or at least somewhat similar? Isn't it a rule that all amateur built aircraft have an Experimental aircraft sign be displayed somewhere obvious to passengers? I guess you could mod a certified aircraft with non-certified parts and make it become Experimental?

[photofly]

Umm... Isn't experimental the same as amateur-built or at least somewhat similar? Isn't it a rule that all amateur built aircraft have an Experimental aircraft sign be displayed somewhere obvious to passengers? I guess you could mod a certified aircraft with non-certified parts and make it become Experimental?

You have to understand the legal basis. When you sort the terminology out correctly, the question answers itself. To fly legally, every aircraft needs a flight authority. Examples of flight authorities include:

- Certificate of Airworthiness
- Special Certificate of Airworthiness - Amateur Built
- Special Certificate of Airworthiness - Owner Maintenance

- Flight Permit - Experimental
- Flight Permit - Special Purpose

Per CAR507: "Flight permits shall only be issued on a temporary (12 months or less) basis where the aircraft in respect of which an application is made does not conform to the conditions of issue for a C of A or a Special C of A"

An aircraft qualifies for a Flight Permit - Experimental if it an "aircraft, excluding aircraft that are operated under a special certificate of airworthiness in the owner-maintenance or amateur-built classification, which is manufactured for, or engaged in, aeronautical research and development, or for showing compliance with airworthiness standards."

An aircraft qualifies for a Flight Permit - Special Purpose for things like ferry to maintenance, demonstrations, import/export flights.

Flight permits usually have conditions on the circumstances and purpose of the flight. The reason you can't reasonably train in an aircraft operated under a Flight Permit - Experimental isn't that the training isn't valid; it's that a training flight (probably) isn't one of the allowed purposes for the flight listed on the flight permit, and so the aircraft wouldn't have authority to takeoff.


The required placard for an aircraft whose flight authority is a Special Certificate of Airworthiness - Amateur Built doesn't refer to "experimental", no. If you modify a certified aircraft for the purposes of experimentation the Certificate of Airworthiness is invalid. But you can apply for a Flight Permit - Expermental, which is a temporary flight authority, and will have strict condition on when, where and for what the aircraft can be used.
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[Big Pistons Forever]

I did 2 PPL's on student owned X foreign military training aircraft. They were flying under a Special C of A - Limited. The C of A included an additional page of limitations, none of which affected the conduct of the PPL training.

TC had no issues with processing the license. The biggest issue was finding a PE that was comfortable doing the flight test. Fortunately there was a local PE which had some experience on the type.

Personally as a general rule I will not do a flight test on a home built aircraft. I might make an exception for an aircraft were I was very familiar with the builder, but I will never get into a strange home-built.

[AirFrame]

Umm... Isn't experimental the same as amateur-built or at least somewhat similar? Isn't it a rule that all amateur built aircraft have an Experimental aircraft sign be displayed somewhere obvious to passengers? I guess you could mod a certified aircraft with non-certified parts and make it become Experimental?

Experimental is as described above. It's for aeronautical testing or special purposes, and is temporary.

Amateur-built aircraft in Canada CANNOT have "Experimental" marked on it. In fact, if one is to import an Experimental-Amateur-Built from the US, where it is required that you put the word "Experimental" on it in large letters, you have to remove it again before it can be registered in Canada. This has been an issue for some who imported planes where the Experimental word is painted on, or a label that's painted in... They have to paint over it or sand it off. I got lucky that mine was marked with stick-on letters that I could peel off.

And no, you can't put non-certified parts on a Certified aircraft and make it an Amateur-Built. I suppose it's conceivable that you could put a Certified aircraft into the Experimental category if you were conducting aeronautical research, but it would be temporary and would have to be returned to the state it was before the modification when the Experimental permit expired.

[praveen4143]

Umm... Isn't experimental the same as amateur-built or at least somewhat similar? Isn't it a rule that all amateur built aircraft have an Experimental aircraft sign be displayed somewhere obvious to passengers? I guess you could mod a certified aircraft with non-certified parts and make it become Experimental?

You have to understand the legal basis. When you sort the terminology out correctly, the question answers itself. To fly legally, every aircraft needs a flight authority. Examples of flight authorities include:

- Certificate of Airworthiness
- Special Certificate of Airworthiness - Amateur Built
- Special Certificate of Airworthiness - Owner Maintenance

- Flight Permit - Experimental
- Flight Permit - Special Purpose

Per CAR507: "Flight permits shall only be issued on a temporary (12 months or less) basis where the aircraft in respect of which an application is made does not conform to the conditions of issue for a C of A or a Special C of A"

An aircraft qualifies for a Flight Permit - Experimental if it an "aircraft, excluding aircraft that are operated under a special certificate of airworthiness in the owner-maintenance or amateur-built classification, which is manufactured for, or engaged in, aeronautical research and development, or for showing compliance with airworthiness standards."

An aircraft qualifies for a Flight Permit - Special Purpose for things like ferry to maintenance, demonstrations, import/export flights.

Flight permits usually have conditions on the circumstances and purpose of the flight. The reason you can't reasonably train in an aircraft operated under a Flight Permit - Experimental isn't that the training isn't valid; it's that a training flight (probably) isn't one of the allowed purposes for the flight listed on the flight permit, and so the aircraft wouldn't have authority to takeoff.


The required placard for an aircraft whose flight authority is a Special Certificate of Airworthiness - Amateur Built doesn't refer to "experimental", no. If you modify a certified aircraft for the purposes of experimentation the Certificate of Airworthiness is invalid. But you can apply for a Flight Permit - Expermental, which is a temporary flight authority, and will have strict condition on when, where and for what the aircraft can be used.
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Really well explained! Thanks photofly!

We need an upvote mod for the forums!