A mom to a child here. Needed some info

[robshelle]

My 2 bits.

Also, airlines like university degrees, and they don’t have to be aviation related. So your son could go to a normal university, get a normal degree(science, business, engineering, etc) and do all his flight training on the side. RESP money goes to the kid, not the school, and you can easily have more in RESP’s than the basic tuition/books for UofT for example, and that excess can go to flight training.

Robshelle

[fliter]

If I may be so forward as to ask, for him/you to complete the program and get to a stage where he can assist the first officer, are we looking at 150K (currently)? will he need Professional Pilot Training and Commercial?

No. I don't know what programs you are looking it, but it sounds like the two programs you're referring to lead to about the same route, one is just called "Professional" for some reason, probably to make it sound fancy, even though the actual official license he will get is called Commercial Pilot License.

Whether you go through a local smaller flight school or a college program, $50-70K should cover the cost of training. Whether that training will get him a seat at a regional airline or two years in Fort McNowhere chucking bags in -40 degree weather and waiting his turn to fly a tiny beat-up tin can with wings will depend entirely on the hiring landscape, which in aviation is wildly unpredictable.

RESP can be used in most flight college programs, so there is no reason not to start one.

[Found]

One question still bugs me though, must he do the Professional Pilot Training and Commercial? Are we really looking at 150K currently as expenses?

Maybe. There are many different educational paths to getting to the point where you can earn a living as a pilot. Personally I spent about 20k.

Private Pilot Licence: Free through the air cadets
Bought a plane: $12 000
Used the plane for recreation and personal travel: Not counted, about $50 / hour * 300 hours (this would be at least double at today's prices)
Commercial Pilot Licence: Just over 6k using my aircraft
Sold the plane: -$15 000
First job was flying skydivers at 5$ a load, then towing gliders at $5 a tow. Made about $4k a summer.
Multi Engine rating and Instrument ratings were another 9k.
First full time job was flying medevac aircraft, $35k / year.

On the other hand a friend of mine spent $65k around the same time getting an aviation university degree and the same licences and ratings. Couldn't find a job and gave up to become a quality control expert. Married a lawyer and bought a house in Vancouver. He's doing much better than me financially

So if you are going to be thrifty and smart about it, I would budget about $40k in today's dollars. If not, $100k. Keeping in mind that we have no idea what the training landscape will look like in 15 years.

Thank you. This actually gives me a good sense of what it could cost, if we dont go through the "school" route. Good to know that it is actually possible!

Another way to save is buy the airplane with another person, I went this route and saved a lot of money. The person I did it with had his private license and figured his commercial cost less money because we shared the plane.

[Bede]

Also, airlines like university degrees, and they don’t have to be aviation related.

Aviation college diplomas count the same from my understanding.

[Gannet167]

Top Gun 2 comes out soon. I remember watching the first one in 1986 and going to an airshow shortly after. It probably had an impact on my motivation and direction. If he finds that type of flying appealing, the military can provide a degree and several million $ of pilot training, while earning a salary and logging pensionable time. It is probably a very poor route to get to an airline if that is the ultimate intent, which for many in aviation it is not. The military is also a very complex thing to discuss the pros and cons of. It comes with some very big pros and very big cons. It could be a great option if the lifestyle and work appeal to him. It is probably the only way to get to fly things like high performance jets etc. and for very junior pilots it offers a huge opportunity to upgrade early to Captain/Section Lead/Instructor etc. etc. and be given massive responsibility operating aircraft all over the world doing some exotic things in aviation.

I would recommend Air Cadets whether the military is being considered or not. It's a great program that teaches a lot of excellent stuff (potentially including free pilot training) that kids benefit from more - probably more than ever in the current times - like discipline, work ethic, resiliency, team work, leadership, fitness, diligence etc. as well as some practical skills like first aid, how to tie an knot, iron a shirt, navigate in the woods with a compass etc.

[mom2]

Hi Mom,
Teach your son patient perseverance. As mentioned earlier, working for what he wants to achieve. 'Doesn't mean your son can't enjoy the work of building models, but the point is to put out the effort to see it through from plans on the table before him, to flying. By the time you're paying for an airplane and an instructor, you want your son doing the work to learn, and being focused. Flying, more so than most pastimes, will not tolerate inattention, nor people taking short cuts to get there - the best pilots did the work.

In a previous post, there was a mention of "entitled kids". Yeah, I'm cautious about these people and pilots. They may have their parent's fancy plane, but it doesn't mean that they did the work to get there, as maybe not the parents either. I am much more impressed by a young pilot who lands in a modest plane, which maybe still needs some paint and interior, but they helped rebuild themselves, and truly care for.

My mother set me on a good path, by teaching me to devote myself, and work hard, she was right! The fact you asked here is an excellent start for your son, check for a private message....

Thank you so much for writing, i did not even think until know blasawood models would make a great present. You did bring in some perspective to me when you said, we can buy these models as a learning tool. I think I now also understand your point that he needs to learn to "work" for something he loves to get better at it.
About perseverance, I am not sure how or where to begin. I understand this is not a parenting forum, I will look it up.
I agree about the entitled part. I hear you. I know have a better understanding of how things are perceived from an "insiders" point of view. Thank you.

[mom2]

I am in Toronto, Ontario. I will surely look into the air cadets. He is obsessed. The other day we were watching YouTube (Bright side about a May Day issue). He said, "Oh momma, looks St. Elmo's Fire". I had to google for that word

It's way cooler in real life

If I may be so forward as to ask, for him/you to complete the program and get to a stage where he can assist the first officer, are we looking at 150K (currently)? will he need Professional Pilot Training and Commercial?

Experience for the Airline Transport Pilot License (ATPL) is not done at a school. You work as a pilot with you CPL and get paid. Once he has 1500 hours and passes the exams, he can get an ATPL which let's him work as a captain on a multi-crew aircraft.

Minor point: by "First Officer" do you mean captain? The first officer is also known as the co-pilot in days past. Also the first officer doesn't "assist" the captain. He/she is an integral part of the crew and works together with the captain. Duties are share- the pilots alternate "flying" duties and non flying duties such as talking to ATC. The captain has final legal authority for the flight and assumes all responsibility for the safety of the passengers.

You saw the St Elmos's Fire in real life???!! Wow. Must have been something to experience. I envy you. sorry. You sure have a mighty office view.
Thank you for educating me of the correct usage of First Officer/Captain and a co-pilot. My understanding of their roles was skewed. ATPL, noted. There is so much ive learned just in 2 days of me being among you all.

[mom2]

My 2 bits.

Also, airlines like university degrees, and they don’t have to be aviation related. So your son could go to a normal university, get a normal degree(science, business, engineering, etc) and do all his flight training on the side. RESP money goes to the kid, not the school, and you can easily have more in RESP’s than the basic tuition/books for UofT for example, and that excess can go to flight training.

Robshelle

That's a great point. Aviation being a very volatile sector, it doesn't hurt to acquire some skills on the side to get us going.
I am not sure if it can indeed be done though. I mean, realistically, how will we keep learning 2 things at the same time? Even if we do, is it really possible to acquire skills in an unrelated field to the point where it can actually pay?

[mom2]

If I may be so forward as to ask, for him/you to complete the program and get to a stage where he can assist the first officer, are we looking at 150K (currently)? will he need Professional Pilot Training and Commercial?

No. I don't know what programs you are looking it, but it sounds like the two programs you're referring to lead to about the same route, one is just called "Professional" for some reason, probably to make it sound fancy, even though the actual official license he will get is called Commercial Pilot License.

Whether you go through a local smaller flight school or a college program, $50-70K should cover the cost of training. Whether that training will get him a seat at a regional airline or two years in Fort McNowhere chucking bags in -40 degree weather and waiting his turn to fly a tiny beat-up tin can with wings will depend entirely on the hiring landscape, which in aviation is wildly unpredictable.

RESP can be used in most flight college programs, so there is no reason not to start one.

I read about Professional training course in Pilot Career Centre .com
You know fliter, I noticed one thing. Despite all the hardships, expense, working in harsh conditions, I am yet to hear even a single one of you say you regret it. If you were to join one of my kind of forums (a bank), you would see a lot of people dissatisfied in their roles/ work-life-balance/ perhaps even people discouraging you to get in an office where the work is monotonous, so-so-pay etc.
This makes me believe that the path to get CPL maybe difficult, but once you get in to that mindset, this is something that my son will be thankful for, in the long run.
Even if another pandemic strikes and the industry collapses.

[mom2]

So if you are going to be thrifty and smart about it, I would budget about $40k in today's dollars. If not, $100k. Keeping in mind that we have no idea what the training landscape will look like in 15 years.

Thank you. This actually gives me a good sense of what it could cost, if we dont go through the "school" route. Good to know that it is actually possible!

Another way to save is buy the airplane with another person, I went this route and saved a lot of money. The person I did it with had his private license and figured his commercial cost less money because we shared the plane.

Another great suggestion! so we can team up with another person and make this even cheaper. Of course after due diligence.
At this rate, you can actually even do it with 70K, even in 15 years and with inflation. Thank you so much. Hope is not lost.

[mom2]

Top Gun 2 comes out soon. I remember watching the first one in 1986 and going to an airshow shortly after. It probably had an impact on my motivation and direction. If he finds that type of flying appealing, the military can provide a degree and several million $ of pilot training, while earning a salary and logging pensionable time. It is probably a very poor route to get to an airline if that is the ultimate intent, which for many in aviation it is not. The military is also a very complex thing to discuss the pros and cons of. It comes with some very big pros and very big cons. It could be a great option if the lifestyle and work appeal to him. It is probably the only way to get to fly things like high performance jets etc. and for very junior pilots it offers a huge opportunity to upgrade early to Captain/Section Lead/Instructor etc. etc. and be given massive responsibility operating aircraft all over the world doing some exotic things in aviation.

I would recommend Air Cadets whether the military is being considered or not. It's a great program that teaches a lot of excellent stuff (potentially including free pilot training) that kids benefit from more - probably more than ever in the current times - like discipline, work ethic, resiliency, team work, leadership, fitness, diligence etc. as well as some practical skills like first aid, how to tie an knot, iron a shirt, navigate in the woods with a compass etc.

It was only in 1900's that I got to watch Top Gun but let me just say, it had an entirely different affect on me. (ha)

I really dont think he is at a stage where he has a full understating of exactly what he wants to do. Certainly not if he wants Military or Commercial.
I believe Aviation is the future. A lot of things have already progressed in other sectors like Financial industry, Health Care etc. I do believe air travel will be the future as there is so much more scope to it. So, if he is ready, I want to make sure I am.

So.
1. From 7-11, there is a program he can enter
2. 12, he can enter Air Cadets
3. By 16, he will slowly develop his skills (including washing the planes), PPL
4. Get enrolled either through a school or privately owner plane for CPL
5. get enough flying hours and don't be afraid of -40 god forsaken places or let that be a deterrent.

[mom2]

You have all been such a wealth of information here. I cannot thank you enough for guiding me giving me your inputs. I have now understood that its totally doable, if you have the love for it.

I am not sure if anyone told this yet to you guys but you have a reputation of having God-Complex and snobby. I stand corrected and truly humbled to see such passion towards flying and helping younger generation (as young as 5 years old) make the right choice.
You have, in 2 days, proven all the meme's wrong. You guys are truly an awesome bunch.

I hope to continue hanging around in your forum, keep reading/learning and hopefully, one day when he is a little older, have a mentor. Thank you again.

[Bede]

I am not sure if anyone told this yet to you guys but you have a reputation of having God-Complex and snobby.

Just don’t read the rest of this forum. Lol.
You’ll actually find professional pilots quite humble. The egos usually get weeded out as no one can stand spending 4 days locked in a jail cell size flight deck with them.

[tbayav8er]

I didn't read every reply, so forgive me if I'm repetitive. My opinion may be biased, as I went to Confederation College, but I do really think going to an aviation college is a great way to go. The flight training costs are government subsidized if you go to certain aviation colleges. I graduated in the late 2000's, and at the time, I paid a total of $12 000 for tuition (this included private pilot license, commercial pilot license and float rating, with 25 hrs on floats). They don't do the float program anymore, however. Tuition has probably gone up a bit since then. You can also put the RESP towards this tuition, and your son can also claim the tuition on his income tax later on. There are obviously living expenses etc. associated with moving to Thunder Bay and living there for 2 years for the duration of flight training. He would have to do well enough in highschool to get accepted into the program, and then make sure not to fail any courses while in college. There are no redo's of courses. If you fail one course, that's it, you're done. At least when I went. It's easily doable though if he keeps his nose to the grindstone. I had plenty of time for the fun college life, while still doing well in school. Just have to manage time effectively.

Sault college is also government subsidized. I have lots of friends who went to Sault, with nothing but good things to say. I believe, even if you're from a different province, you still get the subsidized training at these colleges. There were people in my class from all over the country.

Obviously right now, it is a really terrible time for people getting into aviation. Hopefully 12-14 years from now if your Son is getting into the industry at that time, we will be in an upswing. I wanted to be a pilot since I was 10 years old, and when I was about 15 or 16, I began to come to the understanding of how terrible things can be in this industry during a downturn. I pushed through anyways, and here I am now, 30 years old, 7 month old baby, my Wife is on mat leave EI, and I'm laid off from a Q400 Captain job. Definitely not how I expected 2020 to pan out. I'll be recalled eventually as long as my airline doesn't go bankrupt, and by the time the next recession hits, hopefully I'll be senior enough that I won't get laid off again. With that being said, seniority is probably the most important thing. If his goal ends up to be an airline pilot, he should try to get in to one of the major airlines by quickest means possible. Everyone has a different opinion on this, but this is just my opinion. There are lots of career paths though, some of which are more stable than being an airline pilot. Ie. Transport Canada jobs, etc. Just depends on the lifestyle he is after.

[PilotY]

Hi there! I just enrolled in what’s known as an “Integrated ATPL” course at a flight school. They are a “Registered Private Career College” recognized by my province (Ontario).

In this program I will receive a CPL, multi engine rating, instrument rating, and an ATPL at a later time.

In other words, everything a pilot needs to have as many options as possible in the industry (don’t worry about the ATPL until years down the line. It’s a complicated thing that not everyone needs urgently. The CPL is most important).

At my program you do not need a PPL to be accepted, but if you have one it’s good too.

Estimated cost is about 80k all in. Which at least in my area, is nearly on par with a 4 year university education. There were other cheaper options, notably the 3 big colleges where flight training programs were subsidized by the province, yet covid knocked those out for this year. So I took this way instead.

It’s expensive obviously, but when placed next to a 4 year degree, especially in a stem feild, it’s not all that different.

[ayseven]

Somebody mentioned cyclical: in my life, the industry from a professional pilot's perspective, has been down for 36 years, and up for 4.

[Tuza]

One question still bugs me though, must he do the Professional Pilot Training and Commercial? Are we really looking at 150K currently as expenses?

Maybe. There are many different educational paths to getting to the point where you can earn a living as a pilot. Personally I spent about 20k.

Private Pilot Licence: Free through the air cadets
Bought a plane: $12 000
Used the plane for recreation and personal travel: Not counted, about $50 / hour * 300 hours (this would be at least double at today's prices)
Commercial Pilot Licence: Just over 6k using my aircraft
Sold the plane: -$15 000
First job was flying skydivers at 5$ a load, then towing gliders at $5 a tow. Made about $4k a summer.
Multi Engine rating and Instrument ratings were another 9k.
First full time job was flying medevac aircraft, $35k / year.

On the other hand a friend of mine spent $65k around the same time getting an aviation university degree and the same licences and ratings. Couldn't find a job and gave up to become a quality control expert. Married a lawyer and bought a house in Vancouver. He's doing much better than me financially

So if you are going to be thrifty and smart about it, I would budget about $40k in today's dollars. If not, $100k. Keeping in mind that we have no idea what the training landscape will look like in 15 years.

Thank you. This actually gives me a good sense of what it could cost, if we dont go through the "school" route. Good to know that it is actually possible!

Hi Mom!

As a mom of 3 ages 12, 10, and 7 and as a pilot herself a few things to think about in terms of your RESP

1. Save save save

2. At the age of 12 your son can get a student pilot permit and even solo and this will give him an idea if he even likes it or not. It will cost a few dollars but if after the initial "discovery flight" he wants to continue, this is a great way to get him in!

3. Until he shows this is what he wants - and some kids do and others don't - then consider using the RESP. No one knows in 12 yrs how the schooling will be and how or if they will let you use an RESP BUT as mentioned there are two options:
A) accredited college Flight Training Program that also gives a diploma usually mgt or something and your RESP can be used or
B) through a flight school and sometimes they are connected to a college but no diploma is required just the initial student fee. You'd have to check if your RESP is valid for that as I think that depends on the institution.

4. There are always opportunities for young kids to work to pay for their licence. PPL is 17 and then to be professional he would have to get a CPL minimum. Depending on where he wants to go he would need more and now they have the Integrated Airline Transport Licence which honeslty, speak to a flight school that offers it.

I have had all 3 kids flying with me since babes. My youngest was in the aircraft at 2 weeks old. They all love it, my girls are named after the phonetics, and I'm in the middle of finishing an Instructor Rating.

However!!! I never push my kids and my son is bent on space and my two girls honestly want to be a veterinarian and a model - hopefully the model changes her mind!

So it comes to the last point - as the first - save, save, save and let your son decide and then go with that.

Cadets are also an excellent choice but just so you know, only the top 1% get a chance at a PPL. They all get glider options and air cadets not army or navy - but keep that in mind. Having said that, nothing wrong with a glider license.

Sorry so long winded. I worked the ramp to pay for my PPL and was 5 months pregnant with my first when I finished it. Kids know their own dream and we can only prepare as best we can, encourage and let them show us what it is they want! And then that's it! Let them go for it.

Good luck! You seem like a very forward thinking mom!!

[classof2020]

Just my 2 cents, but stay away from Sault College. Not sure when your friend went there but it has become chronic with flight training delays due to over crowding. As you said it is government funded in part, more kids, more funding, more flight delays if you do not have the resources for those numbers!
Case in point the class of 2020 that started in 2017, most of the student body went into year 3, their last year, still working on the PPL. These issues are all Pre covid.
Students were going a month or more repeatedly between flight lessons over that time. There has recently been an artical in the local paper, as well CBC about a parent(s) perusing legal action against the school for delays. If you do search here or on other social media sites, I think you will find more on this.

All the best of luck. Its not easy our there right now. However if this is what you want to do over the next 25 years, stay focused and you will get there.

[milotron]

All of the above is good advice and won't try to add to it.

I will suggest you look into alternatives to the Knowledge first RESP program. It has some 'interesting' quirks to it that are better knowing ahead of time. We capped ours, stopped contributing to it and started a separate RESP with a credit union; far more transparent and control over investments.