What's your favourite euphemism for a practice forced approach?

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RedAndWhiteBaron
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Re: What's your favourite euphemism for a practice forced approach?

Post by RedAndWhiteBaron »

Alright, I think I understand you. You argue for drills, but with a "this is a drill" announcement.

I can't relate to that as a pilot - but I can relate to that as a driver. I drive very long distances at all hours quite frequently. Sometimes for days, 12-16 hours a day. As such, I drill myself on mundane things like "the car in front of me just lost control" or "I let my attention wander and now two wheels are on the shoulder" or "my windshield just shattered" (it could happen, I once had a bird strike in a car :shock: ), for example.

Now of course, none of those have ever actually happened. But I can recall three emergencies, all at highway speeds, where I needed to stop - stat. Once, a truck (an 18 wheeler) pulled out in front of me from an onramp. It had just come out of a truck wash and was spraying hot water everywhere - directly on to my windshield, in -20°C air. I was blinded, instantly, my windshield covered in ice. I was only able to safely pull over by looking out the passenger window for the guardrail. In another case, a coolant hose fell off, spraying hot coolant directly onto my exhaust manifold, while I was in the left lane of four. This filled the cabin with glycol steam in less than a second, again, blinding me, instantly. I had to roll down the window and drive with my head out there like Ace Ventura. In the third case, I got more or less t-boned on the 401 by a truck twice my size that had lost control, on an inch of packed snow. It hit me hard enough to shatter the driver's window, render the driver's door inoperable, and lift my two left tires off the asphalt.

In each and every case, I was able to make the situation safe. Either I'm good or I'm lucky, I don't know. Maybe it's because I practice it or chair drive it, or perhaps because my vanity plates are a testament to the fact that I lived where others did not, so they remind me every time I get behind the wheel. Or, I'm just lucky. But my point is this - while I drill myself on "emergencies" while driving, none of those drills were a real reflection of the few real emergencies I've actually had to deal with in a car.

Each and every time, there was no warning. I do think you're right when you preach simply to not panic, follow a set of drilled procedures (in this specific case of mine, pulling the car over safely and quickly in heavy traffic while blind or heavily disoriented), and trust that since you can't plan for everything, plan for the most likely things. That training/planning/practice/drill will serve you well elsewhere.

My apologies for taking some time to reach my point; upon further reflection, I think I agree with you. I do credit my self-imposed "training" for, at the very least, allaying my tendency to panic in the situations described above. But every time I go out and "train" for anything like this, I clearly know of it, long before it happens. There is no instructor to make it a surprise, and yet, I have in my admittedly subjective and biased judgement, learned, somehow, something that I at the very least attribute my lack of serious injury to.

Yes, I think I agree with you.
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Re: What's your favourite euphemism for a practice forced approach?

Post by digits_ »

photofly wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:38 pm I would take my cue from the airline training industry that the best way to teach the correct response to a (real) surprise situation is to practice the situation many many times in a scenario where it's not really a surprise.
Why? Just because airlines do it, doesn't mean it's the best way to do things. If so, we might as well do the whole PPL/CPL/IFR training in a simulator at 3 AM, and then let you fly in the actual airplane for the first time with pax in the back.

I find it hard to argue that it's safer to not touch the actual airplane at all vs doing at least part of the training in the actual plane. It's about money and convenience, not about what training is most effective.

I doubt informing pilots about what exercises are all going to happen step by step is the actual goal, it's just hard to avoid if you need to do all exercises in 3 sim sessions.
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Re: What's your favourite euphemism for a practice forced approach?

Post by photofly »

Either way, the result is pilots who are good at handling real engine fires, real rejected takeoffs and other things they practice in simulators.
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Re: What's your favourite euphemism for a practice forced approach?

Post by redlaser »

With over 20,000 hours of PIC time I've had four forced landings due to engine failure, two while giving flight training on FTU aircraft, one with a Cessna 185 on floats, and one with a Cessna 172 on wheels north of Wabush in Labrador , NFL, And I survived all four, Some pilots do have nine lives, or they do the right thing when the engine quits.
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Re: What's your favourite euphemism for a practice forced approach?

Post by TeePeeCreeper »

redlaser wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 1:50 pm With over 20,000 hours of PIC time I've had four forced landings due to engine failure, two while giving flight training on FTU aircraft, one with a Cessna 185 on floats, and one with a Cessna 172 on wheels north of Wabush in Labrador , NFL, And I survived all four, Some pilots do have nine lives, or they do the right thing when the engine quits.
Glad to hear that you’ve handled it well in the past, self praise aside.

Maybe you could regal us all with what happened/how you handled it in order to not have to utilize your “nine lives or superior skill”?

Just a thought....

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Re: What's your favourite euphemism for a practice forced approach?

Post by RedAndWhiteBaron »

redlaser wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 1:50 pm And I survived all four
I don't believe you. Cite your sources :smt014
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Re: What's your favourite euphemism for a practice forced approach?

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

My 02 cents

The incident/accident record indicates that between 60 and 75 % of all engine failures are directly caused by the actions or inactions of the pilot. Carb ice and fuel starvation/mismanagement account for the majority of those failures. The best way to deal with the engine failure is to not have it fail in the first place

If it does fail the most important action after pointing the airplane towards a area that will result in a survivable crash is the cause check. Off the top of my head I can think of 3 airplanes based at my home drome that were wrecked as a result of engine failure, one of which was in the circuit, but where the pilot could have restored power if they had performed an effective cause check. If a student of mine does not perform an effective cause check at the start of the simulated failure Immediately stop the exercise and start over after a debrief.

It appears that for every total engine failure there are probably at least 2 instances of partial failure, yet this more common scenario is almost never introduced in training. In some respects it is a more difficult scenario for a pilot because of the level of uncertainty. My students will see at least one partial failure where I will reduce power to just enough to sustain level flight to drive the "what now" PDM.

With respect to the surprise question I am with a with an poster who observed that even if students know it is coming they still manage to screw it up. As Photo alluded to the purpose of training is to teach and practice the actions required for the exercise, not to play mind games with the student.

However in the interest of full transparency, for students who are a bit to too full of themselves I have been know to initiate the expected engine failure by declaring that there are flames coming out of the cowling and smoke coming out of the cabin vent :mrgreen:
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Re: What's your favourite euphemism for a practice forced approach?

Post by photofly »

Big Pistons Forever wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:13 am However in the interest of full transparency, for students who are a bit to too full of themselves I have been know to initiate the expected engine failure by declaring that there are flames coming out of the cowling and smoke coming out of the cabin vent :mrgreen:
have you ever had a student who thought their instructor was a bit too full of themselves, and so declared a mayday and shut the fuel off for real? :-)
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Re: What's your favourite euphemism for a practice forced approach?

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

photofly wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:17 am
Big Pistons Forever wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:13 am However in the interest of full transparency, for students who are a bit to too full of themselves I have been know to initiate the expected engine failure by declaring that there are flames coming out of the cowling and smoke coming out of the cabin vent :mrgreen:
have you ever had a student who thought their instructor was a bit too full of themselves, and so declared a mayday and shut the fuel off for real? :-)
No but I did have one who I was doing some brush up training in a Citabria ( with me sitting in the back seat) respond to my rather cutting comment about how it was just as easy to fly at Three thousand feet as it was to fly at Three thousand and 27 feet by saying "Ummmm YOU said YOU had control ...." :oops:
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Re: What's your favourite euphemism for a practice forced approach?

Post by Squaretail »

It appears that for every total engine failure there are probably at least 2 instances of partial failure, yet this more common scenario is almost never introduced in training.
Even though that may be true, I think the problem is binary in that either the airplane can maintain altitude with the power it has, or it can't. In most modes of failure, the airplane won't be able to maintain altitude, the extra power available merely changes the descent profile, and the procedure for dealing with the problem - the currently taught forced approach - is still applicable to the situation. I would speculate that in most cases, if a partial power loss still gave enough power to stay at cruise altitude, many pilots probably wouldn't notice, until they had to try and climb, which may not be necessary if it occurred in the cruise portion of a flight anyways. Partial power losses where one can contemplate continuing to destination are the realm of multi-engine flying.

I would also argue that any single engine partial power loss, that hasn't been instigated by the actions of the pilot, also has a high probability of progressing to a complete power loss. For most entry level pilots, treating them as such is the most reasonable method of covering the most bases given the limited time available for training. One should also say that the issues of partial power loss are also addressed in the Precautionary Landing exercise.
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Re: What's your favourite euphemism for a practice forced approach?

Post by photofly »

I must say on one occasion the length of time that it took me to decide if the engine was making enough power to maintain level flight nearly got me in big trouble.
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Re: What's your favourite euphemism for a practice forced approach?

Post by RedAndWhiteBaron »

Squaretail wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:54 am One should also say that the issues of partial power loss are also addressed in the Precautionary Landing exercise.
I'm not sure how applicable this actually is, considering a precautionary landing, as taught, involves a low level inspection and subsequent climbout, which may not be possible with only partial power.
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Re: What's your favourite euphemism for a practice forced approach?

Post by photofly »

I agree. If you have a significant unexplained partial power loss, use what remaining power you have only to position yourself better for a forced approach procedure, then close the throttle and proceed from there.

I should add (before I rightly get my wrist smacked for giving a two line answer to a very difficult scenario) that a big helping of sound judgement should be engaged, and you may be able to limp back to a nearby aerodrome on whatever power you have. But I would keep my altitude until I was certain I would no longer need power to climb, which is not the usual procedure for a precautionary landing.
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Re: What's your favourite euphemism for a practice forced approach?

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

I guess I am the median pilot with respect to engine failure because I have had one total engine failure, a failed oil pump drive gear, and 2 partial failures in GA aircraft. I am not counting the several partial and full failures and precautionary shutdowns of large radial engines I have also had.

The first partial failure was in a C 172. I was in cruise and the engine with no warning, suddenly lost a lot of power and was running very roughly. I did a cause check and when I cycled the mags the engine picked up and ran normally with just the left mag selected. I was not far from home so I arranged my flight path to stay in range of lendable areas and made an uneventful landing

The second partial failure was in a Navajo climbing out of Tofino. I was 38 pounds below gross weight and going through about 2500 ft when the right engine rolled back to about 17 inches. It was still running but producing almost no usable thrust. I elected to not shut it down in order to retain the hydraulic pump and alternator and went back and landed at Tofino

The first partial was caused by a magneto internal mechanical failure which had the effect of advancing the spark about 40 deg. The engine most definitely did not like the dueling magneto's. Deselecting the bad mag as part of the cause check resolved the loss of power

The second partial was a result of a catastrophic turbo failure which also affected the waste gate and induction side. The engine was only getting enough air to run at very low power. The interesting thing is this really was a pilot caused failure. In the preceding 4 flights 2 different pilots had put a total of 6 liters of oil in the engine, including "helpfully" topping up the engine prior to my flight, and did not think to tell anyone. This engine gave plenty of warning it was sick but nobody was paying attention.....
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Re: What's your favourite euphemism for a practice forced approach?

Post by Squaretail »

RedAndWhiteBaron wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:07 am
Squaretail wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:54 am One should also say that the issues of partial power loss are also addressed in the Precautionary Landing exercise.
I'm not sure how applicable this actually is, considering a precautionary landing, as taught, involves a low level inspection and subsequent climbout, which may not be possible with only partial power.
True. The point is that the rest of the procedure for a precautionary landing can be used to
use what remaining power you have only to position yourself better for a forced approach procedure
There is after all more to the precautionary exercise than just the low pass portion. I usually teach the Precautionary with caveats to keep in mind depending on the purpose you're using for.
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Re: What's your favourite euphemism for a practice forced approach?

Post by redlaser »

By reading some of the commenters I see there are a lot of wannabe pilots on this site, who couldn't know the differance from a pusher to a tractor airplane, So I won't take the time to answer their childish remarks. Capish
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Re: What's your favourite euphemism for a practice forced approach?

Post by Conflicting Traffic »

RedAndWhiteBaron wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:07 am
Squaretail wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:54 am One should also say that the issues of partial power loss are also addressed in the Precautionary Landing exercise.
I'm not sure how applicable this actually is, considering a precautionary landing, as taught, involves a low level inspection and subsequent climbout, which may not be possible with only partial power.
Not if it's taught completely. The Flight Training Manual specifically discusses "Landing with Minimum Time for the Inspection" and includes the possibility of engine problems. In other words, the Precautionary is a decision making exercise, not a mechanical, by-rote inspection. The "standard" (for lack of a better term) Precautionary procedure is a great starting point. But if you haven't seen scenario-based variations, this is something you should discuss with your instructor.
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Re: What's your favourite euphemism for a practice forced approach?

Post by photofly »

Landing right away, to my mind, means in a situation where external influences require it, not a situation from which a climb out from a low level inspection is a physical impossibility.

If you’re not doing a low level inspection then it’s not really a precautionary landing, and if you’re not prepared or able to climb away even if you discover the most horrible defect with your chosen field on that low inspection then there’s little point doing one.

Exercise 21 of the PPL flight test guide, for which your other correspondent says he’s preparing, requires the candidate to:

“execute a stabilized approach for the low-level inspection at the recommended airspeed (+10/–5 knots);
overfly the landing area in stabilized level flight at a safe height above obstacles for both the approach and departure and at an airspeed that will permit an effective assessment of surface conditions;”

I wouldn’t do either of those things with a significant and unexplained loss of engine power.

So really it becomes a discussion about whether the appropriate action in this situation should be categorized as exercise 21 or 22, a distinction which is unimportant and uninteresting.
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Re: What's your favourite euphemism for a practice forced approach?

Post by Aviatard »

To make the Precautionary Landing exercise more confusing, TC inspectors are now recommending that practice for landing off-airport no longer be taught. It is to be a precautionary airfield inspection only, and not preparation for landing in a random farmer's field. This is in spite of the Flight Instructor Guide, and Flight Training Manuals not being updated to reflect the change. If you never had a conversation with a TC inspector, you'd never know about this.
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Re: What's your favourite euphemism for a practice forced approach?

Post by photofly »

Some are, and I think it's a really good idea. I've seen one inspector literally jumping up and down about it.

But since instructors are told in law that "Flight training that is conducted using an aeroplane or helicopter shall be conducted in accordance with the applicable flight instructor guide and flight training manual" (405.14) they can keep recommending that and nothing much can change.
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