Does FSS clear IFR aircraft to land at RAAS MF's?
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Does FSS clear IFR aircraft to land at RAAS MF's?
Hi all, I've just been starting to look into some instrument stuff for the fun of it. And I had a conversation with somebody about doing an IFR approach into Muskoka (CYQA) airport.
The airport itself is situated within a Class E control zone, and has an MF where an RAAS exists. So I guess it is technically a controlled airport. My expectation was that, after being cleared for an approach by the relevant ATC unit, you would be passed off to the MF, where in this case Timmins Radio would be the person you are talking to. From what I am reading in the AIM, it seems that your radio calls are pretty straight forward. Report when crossing the IAWP and the FAWP (Its an RNAV GNSS) and then report on final. However, the person that I was talking to explained to me that the FSS person actually needs to give you a landing clearance. I thought this was odd as, for VFR traffic, FSS is an advisory service only. To me, it would seem dangerous that IFR aircraft would be cleared to land in VMC conditions when VFR traffic can technically do what they want.
Is it possible anyone could clarify?
The airport itself is situated within a Class E control zone, and has an MF where an RAAS exists. So I guess it is technically a controlled airport. My expectation was that, after being cleared for an approach by the relevant ATC unit, you would be passed off to the MF, where in this case Timmins Radio would be the person you are talking to. From what I am reading in the AIM, it seems that your radio calls are pretty straight forward. Report when crossing the IAWP and the FAWP (Its an RNAV GNSS) and then report on final. However, the person that I was talking to explained to me that the FSS person actually needs to give you a landing clearance. I thought this was odd as, for VFR traffic, FSS is an advisory service only. To me, it would seem dangerous that IFR aircraft would be cleared to land in VMC conditions when VFR traffic can technically do what they want.
Is it possible anyone could clarify?
Re: Does FSS clear IFR aircraft to land at RAAS MF's?
No, class E FSS doesn't give you any kind of clearances. No approach clearances (you get those from ATC before talking to FSS), and they don't give landing clearances.
Circuit traffic has precedence over straight-in IFR traffic, but generally FSS will ask circuit traffic to accommodate the IFR traffic.
Circuit traffic has precedence over straight-in IFR traffic, but generally FSS will ask circuit traffic to accommodate the IFR traffic.
Re: Does FSS clear IFR aircraft to land at RAAS MF's?
The Appropriate ATC unit will issue the clearance for the approach, The FSS operating the MF or RASS will provide you with traffic and weather information and usually try to de-conflict you with any VFR traffic (however this is still your responsibility). The FSS will usually request a call at the FAWP or the FAF if you continue the approach. Personally I find it easier to just cancel IFR when visual most times and join the VFR pattern. The long and short is no landing clearance required.
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Re: Does FSS clear IFR aircraft to land at RAAS MF's?
A common misconception is calling an airport within a control zone a controlled airport. An FSS can only provide service at uncontrolled airport.
See AIM RAC 1.1.2.2
See AIM RAC 1.1.2.2
Re: Does FSS clear IFR aircraft to land at RAAS MF's?
A class E airport with or without FSS (RAAS or onsite) is a uncontrolled airport.
However, it is an uncontrolled airport within controlled airspace. So if you are IFR you will need an IFR clearance for the routing and departure timing etc, but not for takeoff and landing.
It is important to distinguish between an uncontrolled airport in uncontrolled airspace and uncontrolled airport in controlled airspace.
At no time will FSS give you clearance to take off or land either IFR or VFR.
However, it is an uncontrolled airport within controlled airspace. So if you are IFR you will need an IFR clearance for the routing and departure timing etc, but not for takeoff and landing.
It is important to distinguish between an uncontrolled airport in uncontrolled airspace and uncontrolled airport in controlled airspace.
At no time will FSS give you clearance to take off or land either IFR or VFR.
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Re: Does FSS clear IFR aircraft to land at RAAS MF's?
To muddy the water further - FSS WILL give you your IFR clearance (I don't know about muskoka specifically, but in some places) but its not actually them clearing you. They've made a phone call to the appropriate center and are just relaying the information.
Also worth noting - controlled airspace in this case doesn't mean everyone is controlled, its only controlled for IFR. The VFR traffic in the same area is uncontrolled. Thats why its generally easier to cancel when able and continue in VFR.
Also worth noting - controlled airspace in this case doesn't mean everyone is controlled, its only controlled for IFR. The VFR traffic in the same area is uncontrolled. Thats why its generally easier to cancel when able and continue in VFR.
The only three things a wingman should ever say: 1. "Two's up" 2. "You're on fire" 3. "I'll take the fat one"
Re: Does FSS clear IFR aircraft to land at RAAS MF's?
I believe the terminology is FSS will relay the clearance. Look out for the difference between “you are cleared” when talking to the responsible ATC IFR unit and “ATC clears..” when a clearance is relayed to you by FSS or a VFR ATC unit.Redneck_pilot86 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:56 pm To muddy the water further - FSS WILL give you your IFR clearance (I
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
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Re: Does FSS clear IFR aircraft to land at RAAS MF's?
I have to disagree slightly. It is controlled for everyone, but VFR don't need clearance or contact for proceeding. It may sound ridicoulous, but it changes something for weather minimas, special VFR, etc.Redneck_pilot86 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:56 pm Also worth noting - controlled airspace in this case doesn't mean everyone is controlled, its only controlled for IFR. The VFR traffic in the same area is uncontrolled. Thats why its generally easier to cancel when able and continue in VFR.
Too many think it's uncontrolled for VFR so 1sm or 2sm weather minimas apply.
Re: Does FSS clear IFR aircraft to land at RAAS MF's?
The easiest way to determine if an airport is controlled is to see if it has a tower. If it does, the airport is controlled during the hours that the tower is operational.
It is easy to get the controlled airport idea mixed up with controlled airspace or clearances.
It is easy to get the controlled airport idea mixed up with controlled airspace or clearances.
- Redneck_pilot86
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Re: Does FSS clear IFR aircraft to land at RAAS MF's?
Thats a curious way of looking at it - I've never heard it descried quite like that. You are right, just not how I would have thought about the distinctions.the-minister31 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 25, 2020 6:06 amI have to disagree slightly. It is controlled for everyone, but VFR don't need clearance or contact for proceeding. It may sound ridicoulous, but it changes something for weather minimas, special VFR, etc.Redneck_pilot86 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:56 pm Also worth noting - controlled airspace in this case doesn't mean everyone is controlled, its only controlled for IFR. The VFR traffic in the same area is uncontrolled. Thats why its generally easier to cancel when able and continue in VFR.
Too many think it's uncontrolled for VFR so 1sm or 2sm weather minimas apply.
The only three things a wingman should ever say: 1. "Two's up" 2. "You're on fire" 3. "I'll take the fat one"
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Re: Does FSS clear IFR aircraft to land at RAAS MF's?
Redneck_pilot86 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 29, 2020 8:08 pm Thats a curious way of looking at it - I've never heard it descried quite like that. You are right, just not how I would have thought about the distinctions.
I taught in uncontrolled for a few years. I figured out the many ways to describe E, F, and G depending on what concepts were unclear haha