Spin Recovery Altitude

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rookiepilot
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Re: Spin Recovery Altitude

Post by rookiepilot »

photofly wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:25 pm To fly in IMC you need an instructor with an instrument rating, an aircraft equipped for IMC, which these days means an IFR approved GPS installation, no icing conditions, no convective conditions, weather that meets alternate minima, an approach that you can realistically expect to fly, according to the weather, and to file an instrument flight plan. Icing conditions prevail in southern Ontario from October to March, and convective conditions apply May to September. It's not realistic to require PPL students training in a C150 to have to fulfil these conditions, so no, I don't think actually flying in real IMC is a realistic burden for PPL training.

A 30 knot tailwind on base is likely to mean a 20 knot crosswind on landing, which is outside the demonstrated crosswind for a C172. So I think you're being absurd, if you think this is an appropriate training environment.
Severe clear and 5 knot crosswind component then?

Look, we still have base to final accidents, and pilots losing control in IMC (and dark night, too). Both scenarios invariably fatal.

I' don't think it's absurd to find a way to train for those risk factors, and that means in realistic conditions, safely.

If necessary, having the instructor fly the difficult part...at least the student has some exposure.

Staring at the ASI more --- :roll: :roll: :roll: isn't the answer, either.
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Re: Spin Recovery Altitude

Post by photofly »

rookiepilot wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:32 pm\

Severe clear and 5 knot crosswind component then?
No, not that, either.
Look, we still have base to final accidents,
Do we? Or are you just looking for an argument?
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Re: Spin Recovery Altitude

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photofly wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:11 pm
rookiepilot wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:32 pm\

Severe clear and 5 knot crosswind component then?
No, not that, either.
Look, we still have base to final accidents,
Do we? Or are you just looking for an argument?
You'll have to take my word for it. I don't spend my hours searching the CADORS.
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Re: Spin Recovery Altitude

Post by Squaretail »

rookiepilot wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:32 pm

Look, we still have base to final accidents, and pilots losing control in IMC (and dark night, too). Both scenarios invariably fatal.

I' don't think it's absurd to find a way to train for those risk factors, and that means in realistic conditions, safely.
Training for those risk factors entirely is beyond the scope of the private pilot license though, and it’s not useful to lump the problems of PPL holders flying into the dark, or clouds without appropriate training, and giving them the appropriate skill to avoid putting the airplane in an undesirable condition that they have to go near every flight.

It’s not a hard ask to tell PPLs to not fly at night. If you have trouble with how to tell time or notice how far the sun is above the horizon, and can’t organize yourself to not be airborne after it goes below said horizon, well no amount of instruction is going to help you. The same can be said of flying into the clouds. Somehow as a not very smart guy, I have managed to never get into clouds unless I did it on purpose in 20 + years of flying. Weather is not that unpredictable. The small bit of instrument training is to keep you right side up if your misjudgement takes you into the realm of instrument flying to hopefully regain a horizon soon. It’s not meant to give you any reasonable IFR capability. There is a reason they want you to have another 40 hours of experience and be tested to challenge that condition in any meaningful way.

If necessary, having the instructor fly the difficult part...at least the student has some exposure.
If something is so difficult a student can’t do it, there is no point in the exposure. As a student if you can’t get a lesson out of it where you DO stuff, then don’t pay for it. It’s your instructor building hours. As the guy who has harped on the stupidity of unlicensed students going on long cross country trips with instructors, I thought you’d have a different opinion on this matter. In that case, “getting exposure” wasn’t worth it.
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Re: Spin Recovery Altitude

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Squaretail wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:32 am



Training for those risk factors entirely is beyond the scope of the private pilot license though, and it’s not useful to lump the problems of PPL holders flying into the dark, or clouds without appropriate training, and giving them the appropriate skill to avoid putting the airplane in an undesirable condition that they have to go near every flight.

It’s not a hard ask to tell PPLs to not fly at night. If you have trouble with how to tell time or notice how far the sun is above the horizon, and can’t organize yourself to not be airborne after it goes below said horizon, well no amount of instruction is going to help you. The same can be said of flying into the clouds. Somehow as a not very smart guy, I have managed to never get into clouds unless I did it on purpose in 20 + years of flying. Weather is not that unpredictable. The small bit of instrument training is to keep you right side up if your misjudgement takes you into the realm of instrument flying to hopefully regain a horizon soon. It’s not meant to give you any reasonable IFR capability. There is a reason they want you to have another 40 hours of experience and be tested to challenge that condition in any meaningful way.

If necessary, having the instructor fly the difficult part...at least the student has some exposure.
If something is so difficult a student can’t do it, there is no point in the exposure. As a student if you can’t get a lesson out of it where you DO stuff, then don’t pay for it. It’s your instructor building hours. As the guy who has harped on the stupidity of unlicensed students going on long cross country trips with instructors, I thought you’d have a different opinion on this matter. In that case, “getting exposure” wasn’t worth it.

A brief exposure to strong winds, or very marginal VMC, is Not quite the same thing.....as those trips with a tragic outcome.

As for training for risks, that of course already happens....I'm simply questioning the value of the spin training, up at altitude, in clear weather, adequately covering that risk in flight when that's not where it happens, typically.

Perhaps simulator work during the PPL to safely address these issues that happen in the pattern, or stumbling into IMC.

Just a thought. Maybe the Sim is used a lot more now than when I did my PPL, I don't know, to be fair.
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Last edited by rookiepilot on Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Spin Recovery Altitude

Post by pelmet »

rookiepilot wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:32 pm Staring at the ASI more --- :roll: :roll: :roll: isn't the answer, either.
It would be better than daydreaming. Just the other day I was dreaming about my new clothing I purchased instead of monitoring the ASI properly...One could have a horrid year and crash and burn if they think too much about them......

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... l-at-69-42

:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Last edited by pelmet on Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Spin Recovery Altitude

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pelmet wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:40 pm
rookiepilot wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:32 pm Staring at the ASI more --- :roll: :roll: :roll: isn't the answer, either.
It would be better than daydreaming. Just the other day I was dreaming about my new clothing I purchased instead of monitoring the ASI properly...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... l-at-69-42

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Don't follow the logic. Want to clarify it for me?
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Re: Spin Recovery Altitude

Post by pelmet »

rookiepilot wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:43 pm
pelmet wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:40 pm
rookiepilot wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:32 pm Staring at the ASI more --- :roll: :roll: :roll: isn't the answer, either.
It would be better than daydreaming. Just the other day I was dreaming about my new clothing I purchased instead of monitoring the ASI properly...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... l-at-69-42

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Don't follow the logic. Want to clarify it for me?
Don't daydream. :lol:
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Re: Spin Recovery Altitude

Post by rookiepilot »

pelmet wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:45 pm
rookiepilot wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:43 pm
pelmet wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:40 pm

It would be better than daydreaming. Just the other day I was dreaming about my new clothing I purchased instead of monitoring the ASI properly...

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... l-at-69-42

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Don't follow the logic. Want to clarify it for me?
Don't daydream. :lol:
Have no idea what you're talking about. Whatever......
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Re: Spin Recovery Altitude

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rookiepilot wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:01 pm
Squaretail wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:32 am
rookiepilot wrote: Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:32 pm



If necessary, having the instructor fly the difficult part...at least the student has some exposure.
If something is so difficult a student can’t do it, there is no point in the exposure. As a student if you can’t get a lesson out of it where you DO stuff, then don’t pay for it. It’s your instructor building hours. As the guy who has harped on the stupidity of unlicensed students going on long cross country trips with instructors, I thought you’d have a different opinion on this matter. In that case, “getting exposure” wasn’t worth it.

Not the same thing, and I think you fully know that.
It’s exactly the same thing. Those trips were beyond the scope of those students’ skill base for them to contribute meaningfully to other than be “exposed to”. You’re proposing it would be useful for students to get “exposed to” training as being helpful to their post PPL survival toolbox. I get where you are coming from, but your wording suggests you haven’t thought through the argument very well. You can stick to your guns and I will continue to disagree with you on that point, or you may wish to reword your argument to make it more compelling.
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Re: Spin Recovery Altitude

Post by photofly »

rookiepilot wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:01 pm
As for training for risks, that of course already happens....I'm simply questioning the value of the spin training, up at altitude, in clear weather, adequately covering that risk in flight when that's not where it happens, typically.
Can you clarify what you mean by this? It reads like you're advocating spin training at circuit altitude and/or in poor weather. You said that's not what you want, so can you elaborate? Where would you consider it safe to conduct spin training if not at higher altitudes and in clear weather?
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Re: Spin Recovery Altitude

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Squaretail, I respect your viewpoint, and I've clarified my post. Maybe more Sim time, is the answer.

Respectfully, those specific trips I'm thinking of, were well beyond the capabilities of the weather for a small single engine piston, at night, beyond the aircraft's and the instructor's capabilities too.
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Re: Spin Recovery Altitude

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photofly wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:05 pm
rookiepilot wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 7:01 pm
As for training for risks, that of course already happens....I'm simply questioning the value of the spin training, up at altitude, in clear weather, adequately covering that risk in flight when that's not where it happens, typically.
Can you clarify what you mean by this? It reads like you're advocating spin training at circuit altitude and/or in poor weather. You said that's not what you want, so can you elaborate? Where would you consider it safe to conduct spin training if not at higher altitudes and in clear weather?
No, certainly not. Of course not. I don't say I have the answers.

Maybe more awareness training on common scenarios where spins happen, more of a focus on spin recognition and prevention, and certainly illusions / distractions caused by a strong tailwind on base, which I think is among the most tricky scenarios...especially for a right hand circuit.

Maybe you guys do all this very well at YTZ. It's a general comment, that targeted training in more difficult conditions of visability and wind when possible, in the later stages of the PPl. Distraction training, really.

Maybe everyone does that now.

I suppose I harp on that and stumbling into IMC, because they are 2 of the real killers.....
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Re: Spin Recovery Altitude

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Requiring anything that needs specific conditions is very hit-and-miss: you have to take the winds you're given, obviously. If there existed really good motion simulators for single engine trainers, that might be different, but...
certainly illusions / distractions caused by a strong tailwind on base,
There is a specific air exercise on this: "Illusions caused by drift". Maybe you want to direct some attention/critique to the way that one is taught.
I suppose I harp on that and stumbling into IMC, because they are 2 of the real killers.....
Stumbling into IMC is a flight planning and weather forecasting issue. Preventing it is not something you train for in the air, it's something you train for on the ground. To be honest, the little instrument training seems to me to be falsely advertising that accidental IMC isn't a big deal.
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Re: Spin Recovery Altitude

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photofly wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:18 pm Requiring anything that needs specific conditions is very hit-and-miss: you have to take the winds you're given, obviously. If there existed really good motion simulators for single engine trainers, that might be different, but...
certainly illusions / distractions caused by a strong tailwind on base,
There is a specific air exercise on this: "Illusions caused by drift". Maybe you want to direct some attention/critique to the way that one is taught.
I suppose I harp on that and stumbling into IMC, because they are 2 of the real killers.....
Stumbling into IMC is a flight planning and weather forecasting issue. Preventing it is not something you train for in the air, it's something you train for on the ground. To be honest, the little instrument training seems to me to be falsely advertising that accidental IMC isn't a big deal.
Agree, on the IMC. And there's a clear Toronto night -- lovely -- and Algonquin under an overcast, night, with some summer haze -- not so enjoyable at all. Rather different, as some pilots discover the hard way.
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Re: Spin Recovery Altitude

Post by photofly »

Flying at night is a different proposition, which is why in Canada there is a night rating.

As far as day VFR for a Private Pilot Licence goes, I honestly don't understand why so much - one ninth, more than 11% - of the required hours have to be spent practicing flight in or simulating conditions under which the licence you're training for doesn't permit you to fly. Maybe someone could explain to me.
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Re: Spin Recovery Altitude

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Well in the old days there would be someone who would jump on that question and remind us that the old days didn’t have that requirement, and pilots were perfectly fine. There is a certain point to that, and I agree with your sentiment above on it that it is indeed some false security.

Now that said, I have had a few students who in spite of all my warnings about weather and clouds and wandering into them, came back and thanked me for being serious about those five hours. One claimed it was the difference between life and death when his judgement was lacking. Now while in decades of training people I can only count those on one hand with fingers left over, so did I get through to most of them about the clouds, and the few that didn’t get through to at least equipped to survive their misjudgement? Hard to say. In the end I think the small extra cost in time and money is worth it, your own view on it may vary of course.
rookiepilot wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:07 pm Squaretail, I respect your viewpoint, and I've clarified my post. Maybe more Sim time, is the answer.
Personally it’s the only cause for sim work in the PPL, though I dislike the idea of more of it. Staying out of clouds is in the realm of effective PDM, which poor teaching of is the main culprit, but to be fair, some people will just have to go scare themselves, and then maybe not even then. To quote Tolkien: “the burned hand teaches best, only then does advice about fire go to the heart.” The sim can perhaps best be used in a simple exercise, that’s purpose isn’t to develop skill, but serve as a warning. Just make the student fly in a straight line for half an hour, turn on a bit of turbulence to keep them busy, then make then try to manipulate on of the navaids then a course change. Many, if they have only an hour or two of instrument practice will be overwhelmed by this simple bit and lucky to see the sim maintaining +/- 500’ and or +/-25 degrees of heading. If they didn’t get into a spiral dive during the heading change. The point to hammer home is a) stay the f@#k out of clouds, or b) do the practice and work to get an instrument rating. The game is played for keeps.
Respectfully, those specific trips I'm thinking of, were well beyond the capabilities of the weather for a small single engine piston, at night, beyond the aircraft's and the instructor's capabilities too.
One small point is that it may have been within the instructor’s pilot abilities, but not within their instruction abilities. A student is a huge workload burden, more so the greener the student. Advanced conditions require advanced students at the very least. I know enough dead instructors now, who maybe should have switched to full on pilot mode and ended the lesson. I don’t think students learn a bunch in passenger mode, even if the best intentions are had. Our disagreement has been productive if you can see now maybe those things come to be in the thought process. Your revised items in your post make more sense. If possible PPLs should be exposed to marginal VFR, to see how unfun the edge of their envelope is. Most new pilots have trouble spotting airports in clear skies even with the aid of the gps, now do it with 3sm vis.
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Re: Spin Recovery Altitude

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

Squaretail wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:51 am If possible PPLs should be exposed to marginal VFR, to see how unfun the edge of their envelope is. Most new pilots have trouble spotting airports in clear skies even with the aid of the gps, now do it with 3sm vis.
One of the challenges is that many Instructors have no experience flying in any kind of marginal weather. So a FTU airplane going out to get experience on a crap day is going to have in effect 2 students in it which is not good. The other challenge is that there has to be the right bad but not too bad conditions which is of course the luck of the draw.

My last 5 Instructor rating students were all brand new CPL's and had never flown in any weather that was even close to bad. For 4 of them I was able to get a flight in to a airport 11 nm from out home base on a stable day of 700 and 2 conditions. Half way to the destination airport I was able to get 3 of the 4 disorientated by making them do a few turns and asking a few distracting questions. One got completely lost and would have required a radar vector to get home.

All of them ended the flight with very a very subdued demeaner and a personal story to tell students about why they should not fly on those legal but bad wx days.
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Re: Spin Recovery Altitude

Post by tsgarp »

This debate recurrently surfaces on this site every year or so. I don't understand why people get their shorts in such a knot over spin training. It's just not that dangerous and it's an excellent method to expose students to disorienting conditions in a safe and controlled fashion. We want to do this because as exposure to abnormal attitudes and accelerations increases the level or disorientation decreases. When viewed from through the lens of Cognitive Load Theory, https://www.mindtools.com/pages/article ... theory.htm, spin training increases the students ability to process sensory information. This has two benefits: 1) If the student ever finds themselves in a no duff unusual attitude they will have increased mental capacity with which to deal with the situation. 2) The extra sensory processing capacity developed by spin training can be applied to learning other manouvers, thus increasing the rate of learning. Wingovers and 60 degree banked turns also help with this.
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Last edited by tsgarp on Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Spin Recovery Altitude

Post by rookiepilot »

tsgarp wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:09 am This debate recurrently surfaces on this site every year or so. I don't understand why people get their shorts in such a knot over spin training. It's just not that dangerous and it's an excellent method to expose students to disorienting conditions in a safe and controlled fashion. We want to do this because as exposure to abnormal attitudes and accelerations increases the level or disorientation decreases. When viewed from through the lens of Cognitive Load Theory, https://www.mindtools.com/pages/article ... theory.htm, spin training increases the students ability to process sensory information. This has two benefits: 1) If the student ever finds themselves in a no duff unusual attitude they will have increased mental capacity with which to deal with the situation. 2) The extra sensory processing capacity developed by spin training can be applied to learning other manouvers, thus increasing the rate of learning. Wingovers and 60 degree banked turns also help with this.
The best training I was given, after I had my ratings, was the instructor repeatedly moving the plane into different and opposite usual attitudes, then I needed to recover, then repeat with no pause, all while I was under the hood, until I was fighting significant disorientation (and nausea, too). Excellent LOC simulation.

It took everything to focus and recover after about the third or forth one. I did have my IFR rating, to be fair.
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