I am still waiting for a flight instructor to explain their method of teaching student pilots how to judge height for.
(a)How to judge the height to transition from the approach attitude to the flare for the landing, so as to be flying parallel to the runway at say ten feet above the runway in a typical training airplane such as the C172..
(b) How to accurately ( say within one foot, which is sloppy if you are competent. ) judge the hold off until wheel contact with the runway.
I find it disturbing or at least courious that the subject of why an airplane turns got 103 posts delving into a sort of pseudo physics discussion, yet something as basic and important as how to judge height for a landing got zero responses.
So come on all you flight instructors how about sharing your methods with everyone.
This subject is one that really makes me wonder if all the ham handed approaches and landings that I observe is because of poor instructional techniques or maybe there are random gravity pulses over airport runways.
Cat
Lets try again.
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Cat Driver
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Lets try again.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Cat - perhaps you could start things off with the writeup you made reference to in the other thread?
Maybe we can expand this question to what I think is a fairly similar question, and that is how to adequately line up with the centreline from a reasonable distance. I found myself approaching left of centre quite frequently during my training at large fields and often had to make the correction fairly late - my instructors said this was a common problem but couldn't offer a specific course of action to overcome it besides practice.
P.S. "random gravity pulses"??? that's just asking for another physics thread!
Maybe we can expand this question to what I think is a fairly similar question, and that is how to adequately line up with the centreline from a reasonable distance. I found myself approaching left of centre quite frequently during my training at large fields and often had to make the correction fairly late - my instructors said this was a common problem but couldn't offer a specific course of action to overcome it besides practice.
P.S. "random gravity pulses"??? that's just asking for another physics thread!
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Cat Driver
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Knownice:
I find that most pilots approach either left of center line ( when flying from the left seat ) or right of centre line ( when flying from the right seat.
I will not give any further instruction to any pilot until they can fly the center line from the turn to final to the turn off the center line on the runway onto the taxi way, regardless of if they turn final ten miles or ten feet from touchdown.
The inability of visually holding center line is indictive of poor training and or sloppy flying habits.
The easiest approach to a landing of course is the curving approach to the flare, however that is difficult to teach at most airports for obvious reasons..
As to this:
" Cat - perhaps you could start things off with the writeup you made reference to in the other thread? "
As much as I would like to outline my teaching methods I do not feel that Avcanada would be the proper place to do so because I am not a certified Flight Instructor in Canada.
For me to attempt to teach the art of flying on a Canadian forum would only enrage some of the pricks that are in charge of flight training at Transport Canada and should I turn on the light of logic and common sense in any of their licensed instructors it may end up to be disastrous for some poor flight instructor. Especially if it ever got back to TC that they learned something from me that does not fit into the TC Voo Doo doctrine that they have been fed.
However I would like to take this moment in time to inform you that unless the pilots that I train can judge height in inches they will not their type ratings signed by me. And if they can not hold the center line their training ends right there.
I started this to see if I could entice the instructor group to share their teaching techniques with the readers of Avcanada, and of course to confirm or disprove what I believe is the reason for such sloppy aircraft handling as is so evident in the general pilot pool.
I am aware that some may not like my attitude, but that is their problem as I do understand how to teach pilot skills and am not in the least concerned if some take offense at my opinion of the a large segment of the flight training industry in Canada.
I find that most pilots approach either left of center line ( when flying from the left seat ) or right of centre line ( when flying from the right seat.
I will not give any further instruction to any pilot until they can fly the center line from the turn to final to the turn off the center line on the runway onto the taxi way, regardless of if they turn final ten miles or ten feet from touchdown.
The inability of visually holding center line is indictive of poor training and or sloppy flying habits.
The easiest approach to a landing of course is the curving approach to the flare, however that is difficult to teach at most airports for obvious reasons..
As to this:
" Cat - perhaps you could start things off with the writeup you made reference to in the other thread? "
As much as I would like to outline my teaching methods I do not feel that Avcanada would be the proper place to do so because I am not a certified Flight Instructor in Canada.
For me to attempt to teach the art of flying on a Canadian forum would only enrage some of the pricks that are in charge of flight training at Transport Canada and should I turn on the light of logic and common sense in any of their licensed instructors it may end up to be disastrous for some poor flight instructor. Especially if it ever got back to TC that they learned something from me that does not fit into the TC Voo Doo doctrine that they have been fed.
However I would like to take this moment in time to inform you that unless the pilots that I train can judge height in inches they will not their type ratings signed by me. And if they can not hold the center line their training ends right there.
I started this to see if I could entice the instructor group to share their teaching techniques with the readers of Avcanada, and of course to confirm or disprove what I believe is the reason for such sloppy aircraft handling as is so evident in the general pilot pool.
I am aware that some may not like my attitude, but that is their problem as I do understand how to teach pilot skills and am not in the least concerned if some take offense at my opinion of the a large segment of the flight training industry in Canada.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Well here's my thoughts on it.
Firstly, I think a good demo (or several demos throughout training) accompanied by a verbal explanation is very helpful to start.
To describe when to initiate the flare, one visual cue that I use is when the ground appears "to rush" towards you. This seems to work for both shallow and steep approaches since this "rushing" sensation will happen sooner on steep approaches and vise versa. You also have a sudden increased sense of forward speed as your aiming point goes from a stationary position in your windscreen to under your airplane.
At the initiation of the flare, I have the student transition their view from the aiming point up to the horizon ahead. At that stage a combination of peripheral vision and forward vision of the runway can be used to judge height. From that stage you just compare "the look" of the runway to how is should look. Use of depth perception at this stage to see the ground moving towards or away from you, keeping your eyes far ahead so more ground is in your field of vision. This distance or angle of the runway below shouldn't change as the airplane's attitude changes. This is where a good instructor demo is important so the student has a reference for how far below, the runway should look. Any ballooning should result in the ground looking further as well as the airplane appearing to slow down.
That's how I tend to describe it. Would be interested to hear how others do. And if it matters, I'm a glider instructor but not an airplane instructor.
Cat Driver:
Firstly, I think a good demo (or several demos throughout training) accompanied by a verbal explanation is very helpful to start.
To describe when to initiate the flare, one visual cue that I use is when the ground appears "to rush" towards you. This seems to work for both shallow and steep approaches since this "rushing" sensation will happen sooner on steep approaches and vise versa. You also have a sudden increased sense of forward speed as your aiming point goes from a stationary position in your windscreen to under your airplane.
At the initiation of the flare, I have the student transition their view from the aiming point up to the horizon ahead. At that stage a combination of peripheral vision and forward vision of the runway can be used to judge height. From that stage you just compare "the look" of the runway to how is should look. Use of depth perception at this stage to see the ground moving towards or away from you, keeping your eyes far ahead so more ground is in your field of vision. This distance or angle of the runway below shouldn't change as the airplane's attitude changes. This is where a good instructor demo is important so the student has a reference for how far below, the runway should look. Any ballooning should result in the ground looking further as well as the airplane appearing to slow down.
That's how I tend to describe it. Would be interested to hear how others do. And if it matters, I'm a glider instructor but not an airplane instructor.
Cat Driver:
Don't you think this is a bit harsh? I mean do you really expect a student to hold the centre line perfectly, especially on the first few tries? I've always thought that's what training is all about... getting people up to standard, not to give up on them because they can't do it.And if they can not hold the center line their training ends right there.
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Cat Driver
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" Don't you think this is a bit harsh? I mean do you really expect a student to hold the centre line perfectly, especially on the first few tries? I've always thought that's what training is all about... getting people up to standard, not to give up on them because they can't do it. "
DHQ, the pilots who I train already hold ATPL's I expect them to be capable of something as basic as holding the center line.
If the student were flying their very first approach I would first train them in the need for accurate centerline tracking, why allow them to develope sloppy flying habits when it is so easy to teach them how to do it right from the start?
Thanks for stepping up and explaining how you teach height judgement, I will be interested in how many other instructors use your technique....
From your post..
" At the initiation of the flare, I have the student transition their view from the aiming point up to the horizon ahead. "
Would you mind telling me who taught you this method?
Please understand it is not my intention to embarass or demean anyone who uses whatever method they were taught, rather I hope to get a thoughtful and logical discussion going on why there is such a low level of skills in the landing phase of flying.
Cat
DHQ, the pilots who I train already hold ATPL's I expect them to be capable of something as basic as holding the center line.
If the student were flying their very first approach I would first train them in the need for accurate centerline tracking, why allow them to develope sloppy flying habits when it is so easy to teach them how to do it right from the start?
Thanks for stepping up and explaining how you teach height judgement, I will be interested in how many other instructors use your technique....
From your post..
" At the initiation of the flare, I have the student transition their view from the aiming point up to the horizon ahead. "
Would you mind telling me who taught you this method?
Please understand it is not my intention to embarass or demean anyone who uses whatever method they were taught, rather I hope to get a thoughtful and logical discussion going on why there is such a low level of skills in the landing phase of flying.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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shimmydampner
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I stick this handy unit out the window, point at the ground and press the big red button.
Just out of curiosity, how many inches of leeway do they get, and what is the practical purpose of judging height in inches? Or is it just to see if they have enough brains to multiply feet by 12?Cat Driver wrote:unless the pilots that I train can judge height in inches they will not their type ratings signed by me.
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Cat Driver
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" Just out of curiosity, how many inches of leeway do they get, and what is the practical purpose of judging height in inches? Or is it just to see if they have enough brains to multiply feet by 12? "
Sure, good question.
Bear in mind I am discussing type ratings in the PBY.....
The pilots who I train are all either airline guys or in the case of one of them an aerobatic instructor, I expect them to be able to accurately judge height, especially when landing on the water ( except for glassy water of course)
The need for knowing their exact height in the latter stages of the landing gives them the ability to recognize when the airplane is to high above the water and pick up on that fact as it occurs, otherwise they will have the tendency to increase angle of attack with elevator to arrest any rapid sink rate and risk getting into a dangerous situation called porpoising.
We do repative three minute circuits no higher than 300 feet down wind, after fifty of these they generally have the correct attitudes and height judgement burnt into their motor skills hard drive.
I am satisfied with the ability to judge 6 inches above the water, with proper training that is achievable in most all cases.
I also use a camcorder for this stage of the flying and debrief with the student using a laser pointer to show me on the TV screen where he/she was looking when any problem with height and or attitude started during the last flight. I freeze the picture so the student can use the red dot to show me where they were looking and what was going on in their thought process at that moment.
Cat
Sure, good question.
Bear in mind I am discussing type ratings in the PBY.....
The pilots who I train are all either airline guys or in the case of one of them an aerobatic instructor, I expect them to be able to accurately judge height, especially when landing on the water ( except for glassy water of course)
The need for knowing their exact height in the latter stages of the landing gives them the ability to recognize when the airplane is to high above the water and pick up on that fact as it occurs, otherwise they will have the tendency to increase angle of attack with elevator to arrest any rapid sink rate and risk getting into a dangerous situation called porpoising.
We do repative three minute circuits no higher than 300 feet down wind, after fifty of these they generally have the correct attitudes and height judgement burnt into their motor skills hard drive.
I am satisfied with the ability to judge 6 inches above the water, with proper training that is achievable in most all cases.
I also use a camcorder for this stage of the flying and debrief with the student using a laser pointer to show me on the TV screen where he/she was looking when any problem with height and or attitude started during the last flight. I freeze the picture so the student can use the red dot to show me where they were looking and what was going on in their thought process at that moment.
Cat
Last edited by Cat Driver on Tue Jan 10, 2006 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Cat Driver
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It may save some missunderstanding with you guys if I explain something now.
When I give flight instruction in my sector of aviation I am not under the scrutiny nor the dictates of a regulatory body such as most of you are with TC.
I teach under a special approval given by the regulatory bodies in what ever country or system I am flying an airplane, such as SA.CAA, CASA, JAR. this eliminates a lot of regulatory paper work and scrutiny by the regulator outside of my approval to conduct such training.
I have only two entities to answer to and guarantee a high quality end product ( the pilots skills level when I am finished with the training )
The first entity is the pilot and the second is the underwriters of the insurance conglomerate, Lloyds of London.
When my students are finished they not only have a high level of skill on the airplane, they qualify for a 75% reduction in flight time required to be covered by the insurers as my training is recognized by the insurance providers to get this reduction in the policy.
The pilots have the incentive of having payed 10,000 Euros each for the type ratiing and LOFT flying in the shortest time they can..
The bottom line is my ability to find work depends 100% on the quality of the service I provide.
Cat
When I give flight instruction in my sector of aviation I am not under the scrutiny nor the dictates of a regulatory body such as most of you are with TC.
I teach under a special approval given by the regulatory bodies in what ever country or system I am flying an airplane, such as SA.CAA, CASA, JAR. this eliminates a lot of regulatory paper work and scrutiny by the regulator outside of my approval to conduct such training.
I have only two entities to answer to and guarantee a high quality end product ( the pilots skills level when I am finished with the training )
The first entity is the pilot and the second is the underwriters of the insurance conglomerate, Lloyds of London.
When my students are finished they not only have a high level of skill on the airplane, they qualify for a 75% reduction in flight time required to be covered by the insurers as my training is recognized by the insurance providers to get this reduction in the policy.
The pilots have the incentive of having payed 10,000 Euros each for the type ratiing and LOFT flying in the shortest time they can..
The bottom line is my ability to find work depends 100% on the quality of the service I provide.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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mikegtzg
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Shimmydampener you beat me to it. I was watching the Future Shop commercial on TV and saw them use one of those units. I was planning to mount it on the panel and drill a hole in the floor for the laser to poke through. I figured it would really help on those overcast days trying to land on a snow covered grass strip or lake.
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goldeneagle
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Ok, I'm not qualified to comment on the instructors methods of teaching the 'judgement of height' because I'm not an instructor. Like you, i am very interested in some of the concepts that are taught.Cat Driver wrote: We do repative three minute circuits no higher than 300 feet down wind, after fifty of these they generally have the correct attitudes and height judgement burnt into their motor skills hard drive.
But, I am wondering about the 300 foot circuits in the pby. Are you doing that to keep it low, and force a little more awareness onto the vicitm/students? Or, are you staying at 300 feet because it takes the pby forever to climb higher ? I'm wondering if this is a 'training method' or a 'cost saving' technique. Honestly wondering, not asking to be a smart ass dissing the pby, because it seems to me it could be either, or possibly even both.
fair enough, that does justify your centre line requirement.Cat Driver wrote:
DHQ, the pilots who I train already hold ATPL's I expect them to be capable of something as basic as holding the center line.
Cat
As for the question, where I learned this style of judging height, I can't really remember when I picked that up exactly. May have even been during my initial training. Seems to be fairly common practice at the gliding sites where I work in Canada and New Zealand. It worked, so I've carried it on.
I get the impression that you don't approve. So, let's hear it then.
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Flying Avatar
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Height Judgement
It is mainly a visual to motor skill learning process. A few flat landings from flaring too late combined with some hard landings from flaring to early will do that with most people. I find that if you teach a 'height AFL' or a specific technique then students are not adaptable to new situations e.g. sloping orwider runways or landing in rain.
Another method is that if your aiming point e.g. runway numbers is starting to disappear under the nose (assuming a constant attitude and therefore airspeed has been held) then it is time to start flaring. This is also the time to start transitioning the focus from primarily the touchdown point, to the end of the runway. This assists with yaw control, especially in crosswinds and with center-line alignment. The easy answer for the latter is to align the center of the pilot's seat (left or right side) and the corresponding control column (assuming it is not a side-stick!) with the center line to prevent landing left or right side of the runway.
Another method is that if your aiming point e.g. runway numbers is starting to disappear under the nose (assuming a constant attitude and therefore airspeed has been held) then it is time to start flaring. This is also the time to start transitioning the focus from primarily the touchdown point, to the end of the runway. This assists with yaw control, especially in crosswinds and with center-line alignment. The easy answer for the latter is to align the center of the pilot's seat (left or right side) and the corresponding control column (assuming it is not a side-stick!) with the center line to prevent landing left or right side of the runway.
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shimmydampner
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mikegtzg wrote:Shimmydampener you beat me to it. I was watching the Future Shop commercial on TV and saw them use one of those units. I was planning to mount it on the panel and drill a hole in the floor for the laser to poke through. I figured it would really help on those overcast days trying to land on a snow covered grass strip or lake.
my landings are usually pretty decent, but how do I grease them on consistently? Damn, I don't know. Was I born with it? Nah. Once I get the sight picture of the a/c's eye-to-wheel height as we're sitting on the ground, I can visualize that in the flare. The other day I went from a King Air 200 to a Cessna 172 and the instructor with me figured I was going to flare too high, but it didn't happen. The key for me is height judgment and prompt, smooth control inputs. I find myself looking for references forward and also to the side, especially at night. A couple of points quickly cross-checked helps me nail it.
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rotateandfly
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The thing I've learned from flight instruction is that everyone is different. A technique that works well for me, or for one student, may be greek to another student.
Take holding pattern entries. Some people do this weird thing with their thumb on the heading indicator. It works great for them, but I never understood that. I need a picture. Draw the hold, draw arrow showing your heading as you're passing the fix, and VOILA I can see the hold entry. But I digress once more.
Landings can be very frustrating and difficult for students to learn, because of the level of precision involved, and the constant change of aircraft response during the flare as the airspeed decreases. Things happen quickly, and you must do the right thing NOW. Not a lot of tolerance for erroneous input, unlike cross-country flight where a lateral error of 100 feet is unmeasurable.
Most important thing for a student pilot to learn about light aircraft is that YOU DO NOT LAND THEM. YOU DO NOT FORCE THEM ONTO THE GROUND. If you do, a bouce, porpoise or wheelbarrow on the front wheel is going to happen.
The way a light aircraft is landed, is that it is placed in the landing attitude at 6 inches above the runway with the power off. The airspeed decreases naturally, with the power off, and the pilot attempts to STOP THE AIRCRAFT FROM LANDING with gentle aft elevator AS THE AIRCRAFT SINKS.
This is worth repeating: THE STICK COMES BACK AFTER THE AIRCRAFT GOES DOWN. This will results in a very nice 3-point landing in a tailwheel aircraft, and a beautiful mains-only landing in a nosewheel aircraft, which should always touch down with the nose wheel slightly in the air (even 1/16th of an inch will do).
So, how does a student pilot put an aircraft in the landing attitude 6 inches above the runway? Good question, and the answer will be different for every person.
First thing to do, is to teach the student what the landing attitude looks like when you're sitting out the ground, so he knows what to look for in the flare. Some people use grease pencils to mark on the insides of the windshield or canopy. Again, whatever works for that person.
Next, is to tell the (usually frustrated) student that we aren't going to do any landings today - at this point, he's done about a thousand landings with another instructor, and both the instructor and the student are pissed off.
We are going to do some circuits however, and we review the circuit procedure (power, flap, airspeed, etc) to ensure that the student is flying a consistent circuit which is as easy to land out of, as possible. This involves carrying some power on the approach, NOT diving vertically at the runway in a steep sideslip with full flap and power completely off.
Then I tell the student that I want him to do some low flying. I know, Transport hates low flying. They surely hate me, I do a LOT of low flying. What I want the student to do, is to fly a circuit but DON'T touch down on the runway - every circuit will be an overshoot.
Then, as the student flares - and I want to see a gentle, slow flare, with some power on, to give him as much time as possible to observe - I act as a biological radar altimeter, and I call out our altitude, and I watch where he is looking.
Some people, it helps to glance out the side to gauge altitude in the flare. Other people look at the distant end of the runway. On a very wide runway, I suggest landing on the left hand side of the runway, so that the pilot can see the edge of the runway.
There are a bunch of techniques, and everyone is different.
Most people really enjoy low flying over the runway, with me calling out the altitude, and telling them to add power to stay level and keep the airspeed up. Generally, after a few of these, people end up touching down on the runway, and land, quite pleased with themselves.
They simply need to spend time in the flare, learning to judge their altitude. If I had a goddamned crane, and a floatplane with the hooks on top, I'd suspend the student, and raise and lower him for an hour with the crane, and so he could learn what different altitudes "look like".
But what the hell do I know, eh?
You think teaching someone to land a C172 is hard or mysterious, try to teach someone to land a Pitts sometime. Minimum 95 mph on final, or so the book says, and you're completely blind out front. If you can see the runway, you're NOT going to land on it.
Take holding pattern entries. Some people do this weird thing with their thumb on the heading indicator. It works great for them, but I never understood that. I need a picture. Draw the hold, draw arrow showing your heading as you're passing the fix, and VOILA I can see the hold entry. But I digress once more.
Landings can be very frustrating and difficult for students to learn, because of the level of precision involved, and the constant change of aircraft response during the flare as the airspeed decreases. Things happen quickly, and you must do the right thing NOW. Not a lot of tolerance for erroneous input, unlike cross-country flight where a lateral error of 100 feet is unmeasurable.
Most important thing for a student pilot to learn about light aircraft is that YOU DO NOT LAND THEM. YOU DO NOT FORCE THEM ONTO THE GROUND. If you do, a bouce, porpoise or wheelbarrow on the front wheel is going to happen.
The way a light aircraft is landed, is that it is placed in the landing attitude at 6 inches above the runway with the power off. The airspeed decreases naturally, with the power off, and the pilot attempts to STOP THE AIRCRAFT FROM LANDING with gentle aft elevator AS THE AIRCRAFT SINKS.
This is worth repeating: THE STICK COMES BACK AFTER THE AIRCRAFT GOES DOWN. This will results in a very nice 3-point landing in a tailwheel aircraft, and a beautiful mains-only landing in a nosewheel aircraft, which should always touch down with the nose wheel slightly in the air (even 1/16th of an inch will do).
So, how does a student pilot put an aircraft in the landing attitude 6 inches above the runway? Good question, and the answer will be different for every person.
First thing to do, is to teach the student what the landing attitude looks like when you're sitting out the ground, so he knows what to look for in the flare. Some people use grease pencils to mark on the insides of the windshield or canopy. Again, whatever works for that person.
Next, is to tell the (usually frustrated) student that we aren't going to do any landings today - at this point, he's done about a thousand landings with another instructor, and both the instructor and the student are pissed off.
We are going to do some circuits however, and we review the circuit procedure (power, flap, airspeed, etc) to ensure that the student is flying a consistent circuit which is as easy to land out of, as possible. This involves carrying some power on the approach, NOT diving vertically at the runway in a steep sideslip with full flap and power completely off.
Then I tell the student that I want him to do some low flying. I know, Transport hates low flying. They surely hate me, I do a LOT of low flying. What I want the student to do, is to fly a circuit but DON'T touch down on the runway - every circuit will be an overshoot.
Then, as the student flares - and I want to see a gentle, slow flare, with some power on, to give him as much time as possible to observe - I act as a biological radar altimeter, and I call out our altitude, and I watch where he is looking.
Some people, it helps to glance out the side to gauge altitude in the flare. Other people look at the distant end of the runway. On a very wide runway, I suggest landing on the left hand side of the runway, so that the pilot can see the edge of the runway.
There are a bunch of techniques, and everyone is different.
Most people really enjoy low flying over the runway, with me calling out the altitude, and telling them to add power to stay level and keep the airspeed up. Generally, after a few of these, people end up touching down on the runway, and land, quite pleased with themselves.
They simply need to spend time in the flare, learning to judge their altitude. If I had a goddamned crane, and a floatplane with the hooks on top, I'd suspend the student, and raise and lower him for an hour with the crane, and so he could learn what different altitudes "look like".
But what the hell do I know, eh?
You think teaching someone to land a C172 is hard or mysterious, try to teach someone to land a Pitts sometime. Minimum 95 mph on final, or so the book says, and you're completely blind out front. If you can see the runway, you're NOT going to land on it.
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Cat Driver
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" You think teaching someone to land a C172 is hard or mysterious, try to teach someone to land a Pitts sometime. Minimum 95 mph on final, or so the book says, and you're completely blind out front. If you can see the runway, you're NOT going to land on it. "
As I noted in another post, I find this works best in a Pitts.
" The easiest approach to a landing of course is the curving approach to the flare, however that is difficult to teach at most airports for obvious reasons.. "
As I noted in another post, I find this works best in a Pitts.
" The easiest approach to a landing of course is the curving approach to the flare, however that is difficult to teach at most airports for obvious reasons.. "
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Cat Driver
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- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
" Ok, I'm not qualified to comment on the instructors methods of teaching the 'judgement of height' because I'm not an instructor. Like you, i am very interested in some of the concepts that are taught. "
Goldeneagle, to understand the basics of flying you do not need to be an instructor, hell not only am I not an instructor I am considered so incompetent by Transport Canada that they actually tell my clients that they will not recognize any training given by me in Canada. In fact I had to go to the Director General Transport Canada and demand that he interceed and force TC in Vancouver to cease and desist from ruining my career in aviation....he wrote some letters telling them that I had a legal right to teach what I was teaching and I'll be God Damned if those c.cks.ckers didn't start the same thing a few months later. That was several years ago and I have never flown for hire in Canadian airspace since.
With that as a motivator I have nothing to lose in your Socialistic corrupt country by holding TC and the level of competence that they are satisfied with in flight instruction in utter contempt..
So when I see a high percentage of pilots that are not capable of accurately judging height above the runway I thought I would ask TC's certified instructors what methods they use to teach this skill.
To answer this:
" But, I am wondering about the 300 foot circuits in the pby. "
That is quite simple, the pilots are already experienced and all I am doing is teaching the landing height / attitudes of the PBY on the water which is very, very different from landing on the runway.
The PBY has a wing span of 104 feet so by using 300 feet as the circuit height it allows for a comfortable height for the turn to final.
The object of the exercise is to learn to land it not practice x/country flight at high altitude. So by keeping the circuits low and short time wise ( three minutes, which gives them 10 landings every 30 minutes and then they get out of the left seat and let the other pilot fly ten circuits. ) the cost in both time and money is kept to a reasonable level.
The price of fuel alone in Europe is something to factor into flying unnecessary time and distance when doing circuits, it was approximately $3.50 Canadian per liter last summer.
By the way they must be comfortable with landing on the water using no power from two hundred feet to touch down before I let them do power on approaches.
So from all this it should be evident that height judgement during landing is a signifigant part of the training process...the question is how is this taught?
I have a method that works and am wondering what method everyone else uses.
Cat
Goldeneagle, to understand the basics of flying you do not need to be an instructor, hell not only am I not an instructor I am considered so incompetent by Transport Canada that they actually tell my clients that they will not recognize any training given by me in Canada. In fact I had to go to the Director General Transport Canada and demand that he interceed and force TC in Vancouver to cease and desist from ruining my career in aviation....he wrote some letters telling them that I had a legal right to teach what I was teaching and I'll be God Damned if those c.cks.ckers didn't start the same thing a few months later. That was several years ago and I have never flown for hire in Canadian airspace since.
With that as a motivator I have nothing to lose in your Socialistic corrupt country by holding TC and the level of competence that they are satisfied with in flight instruction in utter contempt..
So when I see a high percentage of pilots that are not capable of accurately judging height above the runway I thought I would ask TC's certified instructors what methods they use to teach this skill.
To answer this:
" But, I am wondering about the 300 foot circuits in the pby. "
That is quite simple, the pilots are already experienced and all I am doing is teaching the landing height / attitudes of the PBY on the water which is very, very different from landing on the runway.
The PBY has a wing span of 104 feet so by using 300 feet as the circuit height it allows for a comfortable height for the turn to final.
The object of the exercise is to learn to land it not practice x/country flight at high altitude. So by keeping the circuits low and short time wise ( three minutes, which gives them 10 landings every 30 minutes and then they get out of the left seat and let the other pilot fly ten circuits. ) the cost in both time and money is kept to a reasonable level.
The price of fuel alone in Europe is something to factor into flying unnecessary time and distance when doing circuits, it was approximately $3.50 Canadian per liter last summer.
By the way they must be comfortable with landing on the water using no power from two hundred feet to touch down before I let them do power on approaches.
So from all this it should be evident that height judgement during landing is a signifigant part of the training process...the question is how is this taught?
I have a method that works and am wondering what method everyone else uses.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Yeah, people - including ATC - don't understand that a straight-in approach is the most difficult and dangerous way to land a Pitts, or any other aircraft with limited forward visibility (eg warbirds).I find [a curving approach] works best in a Pitts
Bill Davisson, Pitts landing guru in Scottsdale, AZ describes this as the "black zone".
Bill Finegan, retired USN Admiral and Pitts spin instructor extraordinaire, with 10,000 hours just in Pitts, once landed on TOP of a 182 that pulled out onto the runway when he was on short final.
So yes, a classical approach in a Pitts is to fly the downwind at 1,000 AGL and 1/4 mile (which isn't very much) from the runway. Abeam the numbers, the throttle comes back to idle. Bank left 45 degrees, pitch down about the same, and 110 mph on the curving, descending base-to-final. About 20 seconds from power off to touchdown, at least with the drag of a 3-blade prop.
But you're not always landing from the downwind. Sometimes ATC vectors you straight in. What to do?
What works really well for us is the "slant final". If you're on a long straight-in final, turn - doesn't matter which way - to set yourself up on a 20 (or so) degree angle-off final.
This allows you to actually SEE the frikken runway, which is a matter of safety - just ask Bill F.
Passing over the runway threshold, dip the wing slightly and align the aircraft with the runway, and touch down. The later you do this, the better, because it minimizes the length of time you are blind out the front in the landing attitude.
There is another school of thought with respect to Pitts landings, and it's a bit hairy. There's an older fellow west of Toronto that is a propenent of this. Fly a straight-in final, but don't descend. Stay very high. Then sideslip down, as only a Pitts can. This allows you to see the runway, but you will develop a tremendous rate of descent - over 5,000 fpm - which really makes for a rapid and VERY interesting flare. God help you if your timing isn't perfect. If you're . Yeager or Bob Hoover re-incarnated, this technique is for you. The slant final is a LOT less hairy, however.
