Group 1 vs group 3 ifr

[rotorspeed]

Is it really much more cost effective to do the multi for over the single if it might be awhile til you can use the multi. Instructor said multi engine rating, not the ifr, is basically same test as ppl and ifr is mostly SIM training

[CanadianFI]

I think you are referring to completing a Group 3 (single engine IFR) first and then transitioning to a Group 1 IFR (all aeroplanes)?

The Group 1 IFR training should make use of an FTD (sim) (if available at your Flight Training Unit). The most cost effective method is of course to take full advantage of the use of the FTD during your training. With accurate synthesis, the FTD can also enhance your training.

As far as cost effectiveness for completing a Group 3 IFR first and then transitioning to a Group1, that varies between Flight Training Units and person to person. Look over the IFR program outline your FTU has and look at the two options. In my opinion, if your ultimate goal is to pursue a career in aviation as a pilot working for a commercial operation, you should do a Group 1 IFR. You will be qualified in all aeroplanes to use your instrument privileges. Sure there are operations that only require a Group 3, but you’re far more marketable with a Group 1.

[rotorspeed]

Yes I agree and that was what I was referring to class 3 or 1. In this aviation climate I'm thinking a bit more of realism of use. I was under the impression that doing the class 1 was combinding multi training with the ifr. But as I understand the whole multi is done by itself first with flight test then the ifr, mostly in SIM, redbird, with maybe a few hours of actual flight in the twin

[CanadianFI]

Before you can be issued a Group 1 IFR you must have a multi-engine class rating. The multi-engine class rating is good for life. Even the instrument rating does not expire, or invalidate anymore. It is maintained with currency and an Instrument Proficiency Check required every 24 months. This can be done in an FTD. If you decide to do a Group 3 IFR, you will have to do a Group 1 IFR initial flight test once you obtain your Multi-class rating.

[rotorspeed]

Doing the class 3 first then down the line the multi engine rating, then of course adding the class 1 after, is it that much more expensive than the other way around, multi than class 1?

[Bede]

Before you can be issued a Group 1 IFR you must have a multi-engine class rating.

I don’t think that’s correct. Reference?

[5x5]

Before you can be issued a Group 1 IFR you must have a multi-engine class rating.

I don’t think that’s correct. Reference?

421.46 Requirements

(c) Skill
(i) Subject to paragraph (ii), an applicant shall successfully complete:
(amended 2012/02/19)
(A) a flight test as pilot-in-command of an aeroplane or helicopter, in accordance with Schedule 8 “Flight Test for the Issuance or Renewal of an Instrument Rating” of Standard 428 — Conduct of Flight Tests, or
(amended 2012/02/19)

[trey kule]

First of all , Rotor, I think you are talking about a GROUP 1 vs a group 3 IFR, as some of the other posters have mentioned. Never hurts to get things correct.

And yes, for those doing a multi IFR ride, they have to have a mutli rating. Without either, this requires two separate rides.

On a practical side, TC used to have an unwritten policy that they wanted 10 hours dual to issue a multi rating. (I could be incorrect on that , as it was some time ago..and it was never a written requirement). It does not take the average student more than a few hours to meet the flight test requirements for a multi rating. As a result, FTU’s used those surplus hours as part of the multi IF training.

So....check to see about what is required ( not just the CARs , but any unwritten TC “policy”.)

To transition from a Group 3 (single engine) to a Group 1 ( multi IFR) is rather a simple process, as the written is done, and the only real difference is the abnormal issues unique to a multi engine.

BTW...We used to have class 1 & 2 IF ratings, and in my day there were some TC inspectors who absolutely refused to issue a class 1 on the initial ride, regardless of the candidates performance. Very frustrating to some very proficient student pilots. The lesson being the CARs should be considered the minimum standard, and unwritten TC policy and FTU policies have to be considered.

[Blowin' In The Wind]

On a practical side, TC used to have an unwritten policy that they wanted 10 hours dual to issue a multi rating. (I could be incorrect on that , as it was some time ago..and it was never a written requirement). It does not take the average student more than a few hours to meet the flight test requirements for a multi rating. As a result, FTU’s used those surplus hours as part of the multi IF training.

There’s still a bit of tendency for examiners to want to see this, but I haven’t seen it enforced in any meaningful way. It usually just results in a comment like, “oh, 7 hours eh? We like to see more than that, usually...”

To a previous poster, you definitely need a multi-rating for the group 1 ride.

[rotorspeed]

Yes I changed it to group as it should
Instructor told me that doing a multi engine rating is pretty much like doing another play test in a multi
Some schools advertise the do it combined to save time. So that was my point if that makes sense

[CanadianFI]

Before you can be issued a Group 1 IFR you must have a multi-engine class rating.

I don’t think that’s correct. Reference?

401.26: (2) Where the Minister has endorsed a licence with an instrument rating, the Minister shall endorse the licence with the group of aircraft in respect of which the privileges may be exercised.

If the holder has a licence endorsed SEL only, they cannot do a Group 1 Ride. They must have a Multi-engine class rating. Their licence must show: SMEL under "Class".

[CanadianFI]

Yes I changed it to group as it should
Instructor told me that doing a multi engine rating is pretty much like doing another play test in a multi
Some schools advertise the do it combined to save time. So that was my point if that makes sense

Small technicality, but that is besides the point. If your ultimate goal is to go into a commercial operation, just do the Group 1. Cost savings of doing a Group 3 first and then doing a Group 1 when needed will be negligible, if not negative. I'd suggest having your instructor be truly transparent with the entire program. How much training you will conduct in the FTD, vs. how much training you will do in the single engine aeroplane vs. the multi-engine aeroplane. An organized training outline is the most efficient and transparent thing an instructor can do for their student. Your instructor should be able to provide this to you for both Group 1 and Group 3 options.

[Bede]

Before you can be issued a Group 1 IFR you must have a multi-engine class rating.

I don’t think that’s correct. Reference?

401.26: (2) Where the Minister has endorsed a licence with an instrument rating, the Minister shall endorse the licence with the group of aircraft in respect of which the privileges may be exercised.

If the holder has a licence endorsed SEL only, they cannot do a Group 1 Ride. They must have a Multi-engine class rating. Their licence must show: SMEL under "Class".

That isn't correct. I just finished IFR PPC training a guy with a SEL and group 3 instrument rating. No multi rating. He did his IFR PPC and as per TC that met the skill requirement for the multi rating, group 1 instrument rating, and the PPC.

BTW. It took him 6.1 hours to do all of the multi-IFR and PPC training. (Pats self on back )

[redlaser]

For a cat 1 IFR you must hold a multi-engine rating, it's the law.

[Bede]

For a cat 1 IFR you must hold a multi-engine rating, it's the law.

Again, reference please? The above posted reference wasn't referring to this situation.

If TC says an IFR PPC meets the Skill requirement for the multi and group 3 IR, who am I to argue?

[CpnCrunch]

It does not take the average student more than a few hours to meet the flight test requirements for a multi rating. As a result, FTU’s used those surplus hours as part of the multi IF training.

Which decade was this when the average student took a few hours (3? or 4?) to be proficient to flight test standards? It just seems to be a bit unrealistic. I took just over 6 hours and did fairly well, but I got the impression from talking to the examiner that the average is something like 10 or more. I could have practiced some more to do a bit better, but it's a question of how much money you want to spend burning avgas at $7/minute. I talked to a guy who took 20 hours because he had delays in his training and had to redo things.

[redlaser]

I was doing the flight training for the multi engine in southern Ontario and the average was about 8 hours depending on how much single engine time a person had, some low time pilots took up to 15 hours, So it depends on the individual, My advice to someone taking the multi engine training is to sit in the aircraft on the ground and get use to the aircraft layout and practice engine failure procedures on the ground before doing them in the air, and that goes for any other procedure as well.

[EGW]

Another thing to consider; you can get your group 3 and a multi rating for cheaper than a group 1, and when you get hired to fly a twin otter or king air or any first job multi aircraft you will do a PPC which automatically upgrades your group 3 to a group 1. Bit of a loophole in the system.

[Rich3791]

For a cat 1 IFR you must hold a multi-engine rating, it's the law.

redlaser could you email me at rtheoret@yahoo.com I can't reply to your classified post.

[rotorspeed]

Can someone clarify the PPC. Example you have group 3 ifr then go to group 1. Is that saying you don't need to do the multi seperate then the group 3 flight test?