Spins

[shamrock104]

Why are spins still demonstrated to PPL students if they are no longer tested? Is it purely for demonstration/ prevention purposes?

[Blue Side Down]

Generally speaking, spins should be introduced at an early stage- just for practice- and so that the student gains an understanding of what they are and how to handle/ avoid them while they are still in a controlled situation. Barreling through 800' with a blurry horizon after 100 hours of cozy flying likely isn't the most efficient introduction to the spin.

[Hedley]

Suggestion: learn how to pick up a dropping wing. Hint: it ain't with aileron.

The scenario is a skidding turn onto final. Or, a departure stall. I know guys who were killed by both of these.

[. ._]

Didn't we just have a big thread on this?

Oh well. Spins are FUN! That's enough reason to teach them. I also think PPL candidates should be introduced to rolls, loops, inverted spins, chandelles, cuban 8s, and my fave- the hammerhead (so graceful ).

-istp

[172pilot]

hedley,

whats the best way to avoid a skidding turn onto final? not using the rudder i presume?

[Hedley]

It's very simple: to avoid a stall/spin during the turn to
final (or base):

1) maintain 1.5 x Vs
2) keep the ball centered (see illusions created by drift)
3) after wings level on final, maintain 1.3 x Vs

Use all the bloody bank you want in the turns.

Remember that your stall speed at any particular G can be
calculated as:

Vs(g) = sqrt(g) x Vs

So, your stalling speed at 2G (level 60 degrees of bank) is
1.4 x Vs. So, if you maintain 1.5 x Vs in the turns, and try
real hard not to exceed 2 G's or 60 degrees of bank, you
will not stall or spin.

See, most instructors (and Transport) don't understand
the underlying physics. They couldn't compute the above
if you gave them a week and a Cray X-MP.

Most instructors have a cow if you use 30 degrees of
bank in the circuit. They prefer that you keep the
bank down, and rudder the airplane (skid) it around
instead, which is a receipe for disaster. This is why
we keep having accidents as the years go by.

This is very simple:

You can SEE bank, and control it. Most people don't like
banking more than 60 degrees at low altitude, and they
can feel +2G, which they think is a lot.

You can't always see a skid, in fact the exact opposite is
true (see illusions created by drift).

[harddeckflyer]

Edit

[tricyclepilot]

Reason for spin training: Just In Case.

[tricyclepilot]

Whats the best way to fly the circuit with a calculator in my hand. I think it would make me a better pilot. Do I have to carry spare batteries for it in the case the primary ones fail or is a solar panel calculator acceptable, perhaps a CARS reference to clear this situation up would be beneficial or would this be in violation of CAR 602.01.

HD

Prior to entering circuit, open window and eject calculator. Thrust force of ejection is negligible; disregard. Aviate, navigate, communicate.

[Blue Side Down]

Thrust force of ejection is negligible; disregard.

It's more of an impulse/ momentum dealio... but yes, the mass of the calculator is small, generally. /hijack

[harddeckflyer]

Edit

[Clodhopper]

Most instructors have a cow if you use 30 degrees of
bank in the circuit. They prefer that you keep the
bank down, and rudder the airplane (skid) it around
instead, which is a receipe for disaster. This is why
we keep having accidents as the years go by.

I've never heard an instructor say they want a student to drag an airplane through a turn using rudder, thats insane. A 30 degree bank should give you a sufficient turning radius in any decent small GA airplane to make the turns required of a standard circuit. I even stress turns less than 30 deg in the circuit, for safety and visibility sake.

[Hedley]

I even stress turns less than 30 deg in the circuit

Q.E.D.

Some day, a student of yours will fly a circuit with a strong tailwind on base. They will turn to final, overshooting the runway centerline, but what has been hammered into their brain is "KEEP THE BANK DOWN".

So, they'll keep the bank down - after all, thats the most important thing, they have been told - and they will push on the bottom rudder to increase the turn rate, and skid the aircraft onto final.

It's pretty much certain that a number of people - who almost certainly aren't reading this - will be killed by this, this summer.

It's really too bad no one gives a shit.

[Kilo-Kilo]

Why would anybody fear away from a 30 degree banked turn in curcuit?

[172pilot]

so, in the 172, if you keep the speed up say 70 kts when turning final and avoid using the rudder while in the turns you should be ok?

[Kilo-Kilo]

You don't avoid using the rudder, you make coordinated turns with the ball in the middle.

[thefunk]

Why are spins still demonstrated to PPL students if they are no longer tested? Is it purely for demonstration/ prevention purposes?

teaching spins is pretty important even if you'll never use it (hopefully). i had a commercial student once, while preparing for his CPL flight test, stall the plane and the recovery was wrong and the a/c entered a spin...instead of the proper recovery, he used ailerons to recover, making the spin entry worse, so I had to take over and get out of it.
he was a little shaken up to say the least. it happened twice more! and each time i had to get us out of it...then had to reteach him how to recover from stalls and spins...its very important to teach and recognize why the plane spins so you can get out of it ASAP.
plus ITS FUN!!!!
lol

[Hedley]

It's worth mentioning that it's a REALLY REALLY good idea to keep the ball in the center during turns, to avoid spins.

However, a centered ball is NOT a fireproof guarantee of spin avoidance.

Back when I used to do ab initio training, I used to demonstrate a spin entry with the BALL CENTERED.

Pop Quiz time: how do you think I did it?

[Spokes]

It's worth mentioning that it's a REALLY REALLY good idea to keep the ball in the center during turns, to avoid spins.

However, a centered ball is NOT a fireproof guarantee of spin avoidance.

Back when I used to do ab initio training, I used to demonstrate a spin entry with the BALL CENTERED.

Pop Quiz time: how do you think I did it?

Power on stall entered with a coordinated left turn, 5 degrees of bank.

[Hedley]

Close ... remember that in a climbing (or descending) turn, the geometry is such that the inner wing is at a greater AOA ....