This question may prove to be a bit touchy, but...
How many Comm. instructors actually teach their students what they will face upon getting their first 206, or 185 job?
My point is this, while we all advocate flying within the stated parameters and regulations, there will probably come a time where a new hired pilot will be asked to take a flight that may be outside of parameters.
Often the trip may be a "little on the heavy side", or" its only a little frost on the wings", This happens all of the time.
So do you teach your students to keep their climbs shallow, their turns easy when they are heavy... rotate faster when there is a chance of frost etc.? This type of advice is more relevant than preaching from the CARS about the rules ... it may save their lives... they will probably do the trips anyways so they should have some help.
just my opinion.
first charter job training
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tailgunner
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That's a good question.
I can only speak for myself - and that is to say that I could offer no advice on what you ask because I had no experience in it.
What a crazy industry where generally the least experienced are doing the teaching. If I had to do it again or my son wanted to learn to fly as a career I would seek out the instructor who had industry experience.
Sadly most instructors are only doing it as a stepping stone - that was true of me.
I learned how to fly the airplane as an instructor, but charters taught me how to be a pilot.
I am still waiting for guys like Cat and Duke to share some of their little gems - I love the stories but practical advice for less experienced guys would be very helpful. Noting the number of crashes this year it would be timely.
Foto
I can only speak for myself - and that is to say that I could offer no advice on what you ask because I had no experience in it.
What a crazy industry where generally the least experienced are doing the teaching. If I had to do it again or my son wanted to learn to fly as a career I would seek out the instructor who had industry experience.
Sadly most instructors are only doing it as a stepping stone - that was true of me.
I learned how to fly the airplane as an instructor, but charters taught me how to be a pilot.
I am still waiting for guys like Cat and Duke to share some of their little gems - I love the stories but practical advice for less experienced guys would be very helpful. Noting the number of crashes this year it would be timely.
Foto
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Cat Driver
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Pull your chair up close and I will make it short and simple.
First teach your students that there is no such thing as " a little on the heavy side "
There is a very defined and simple limit regarding all up take off weight.
It is part of the certification process and is limiting with regard to your C of A. one pound over the maximum allowable is not acceptable.
As to frost or other contamination on the aircraft, especially the wings and tailplane. If frost, snow, ice or any other contamination is visiable ...remove it.
You are entering an occupation where once out of the training enviorement and working for an employer you are on your own.
The choices are very, very difficult because you are all alone and it is very unlikely that anyone will defend you should you choose to refuse to break the rules to keep your job.
Please go back and read how many pilots stated flatly that some companies use intimidation to force pilots to fly with disregard to the rules.
Then get back to me and let me know if they are still in business and still operating in the same manner. So much for relying on your regulator.
So there you have it, it is a difficult position to find yourself in.
Do not fall into the trap of thinking that TC enforcement through ramp checks are protecting you from disaster, ramp checks are just window dressing and every once in a while they get lucky and find non compliance issues and ...presto some more money is paid into the system through fines.
I would like to think that people such as the Duke and I can teach far more effectively through this medium than closeted in a flight school with a limited number of people that can be in the " class "
It is very important to note that I also went through the same industry and did bend to pressure and broke a lot of rules to support my family........I was lucky I survived.... and I was lucky that I was never charged and convicted. But I sure as hell was guilty.
However many , many years ago I decided to stand my ground and I refused to bend to pressure. I lost a lot of jobs and gained self respect and survived.......
Remember to have made mistakes is forgivable once one realizes the error of ones ways.... once you choose do things the right way the past is no longer of any concern.
Cat
First teach your students that there is no such thing as " a little on the heavy side "
There is a very defined and simple limit regarding all up take off weight.
It is part of the certification process and is limiting with regard to your C of A. one pound over the maximum allowable is not acceptable.
As to frost or other contamination on the aircraft, especially the wings and tailplane. If frost, snow, ice or any other contamination is visiable ...remove it.
You are entering an occupation where once out of the training enviorement and working for an employer you are on your own.
The choices are very, very difficult because you are all alone and it is very unlikely that anyone will defend you should you choose to refuse to break the rules to keep your job.
Please go back and read how many pilots stated flatly that some companies use intimidation to force pilots to fly with disregard to the rules.
Then get back to me and let me know if they are still in business and still operating in the same manner. So much for relying on your regulator.
So there you have it, it is a difficult position to find yourself in.
Do not fall into the trap of thinking that TC enforcement through ramp checks are protecting you from disaster, ramp checks are just window dressing and every once in a while they get lucky and find non compliance issues and ...presto some more money is paid into the system through fines.
I would like to think that people such as the Duke and I can teach far more effectively through this medium than closeted in a flight school with a limited number of people that can be in the " class "
It is very important to note that I also went through the same industry and did bend to pressure and broke a lot of rules to support my family........I was lucky I survived.... and I was lucky that I was never charged and convicted. But I sure as hell was guilty.
However many , many years ago I decided to stand my ground and I refused to bend to pressure. I lost a lot of jobs and gained self respect and survived.......
Remember to have made mistakes is forgivable once one realizes the error of ones ways.... once you choose do things the right way the past is no longer of any concern.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Cat Driver
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It is not a matter of "should ' you " must ".
May I also suggest that so called " human factors " and " pilot decision making " is not complicated. There is really no need to go into great detail like looking up your ass to get connected with your brain to be able to figure out what is safe and what is not safe.
When I learned to fly we used " From the ground up " as our primary text book. Sandy MacDonald the guy that wrote it used two characters to explain the good pilot form the poor pilot. As I recall they were Captain Wise and Flatspin Fumble, sure that was a far more simple time with far less structure than to day, but there is a lot of truth in that simplistic description of two kinds of mind set.
Maybe what is needed is more common sense and less hype?
Cat...........Your feee flight consultant.
May I also suggest that so called " human factors " and " pilot decision making " is not complicated. There is really no need to go into great detail like looking up your ass to get connected with your brain to be able to figure out what is safe and what is not safe.
When I learned to fly we used " From the ground up " as our primary text book. Sandy MacDonald the guy that wrote it used two characters to explain the good pilot form the poor pilot. As I recall they were Captain Wise and Flatspin Fumble, sure that was a far more simple time with far less structure than to day, but there is a lot of truth in that simplistic description of two kinds of mind set.
Maybe what is needed is more common sense and less hype?
Cat...........Your feee flight consultant.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Well said Cat - if you compromise your principles, or if you aren't aware that you haven't got any yet, just remember that if you survive you have raised the bar one notch higher and your exception very quickly becomes the rule: "...waddya mean you won't go? Bob does it all the time..." Besides, if you break the rules and get caught out, you get violated if you survive, and if you don't your estate gets sued ("pilot error/negligence") and your wife spends the rest of her life cleaning the 'burger grill and your kids don't get to go to college. Ask your employer what he will do to help out your family.
In my career, 95% of the companies that were there when I started have long gone, but I'm still here. The guy that tried hardest to kill me flew into a mountain top doing his usual bullsh*t IFR years ago. I may not be a paragon of aviation virtue, but I have given up breaking rules.
One last thing, when you teach a student, teach him 'procedures,' i.e. the correct way to do it. When you're in the bar later, you can talk 'technique.'
In my career, 95% of the companies that were there when I started have long gone, but I'm still here. The guy that tried hardest to kill me flew into a mountain top doing his usual bullsh*t IFR years ago. I may not be a paragon of aviation virtue, but I have given up breaking rules.
One last thing, when you teach a student, teach him 'procedures,' i.e. the correct way to do it. When you're in the bar later, you can talk 'technique.'
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
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I'd Rather Be Flying
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I'd agree with Cat here. I haven't found any statements in the Flight Test Standard's Guide for the PPL or CPL which state "thou shalt demonstrate to the examiner how to take-off over-gross or explain various phases of flight with a little frost on the wings."
I'm sure TC didn't have it in mind to have instructors teach students bad habits during flight training. They expect the instructors to do their job accordingly.
True enough, that so-called 'real world' flying is different than the training environment, but I think we need to focus more on human factors and pilot decision making and the effects of our choices and actions rather than demonstrating poor airmanship skills.
I can recall my first job flying a C-206 in northern Alberta fresh out of flight school with a couple hundred hours under my belt, and having to make some 'real world' flying decisions when the weather was MVFR or the aircraft would be heavy. Ultimately it comes down to the PIC's choice on what he/she wants to do in any given situation.
Remember it's your life and license/career on the line, not to mention the lives of your passengers. Take your flying responsiblity as just that....an opportunity to make wise choices and live to talk about it.
Safe flying everyone.
I'm sure TC didn't have it in mind to have instructors teach students bad habits during flight training. They expect the instructors to do their job accordingly.
True enough, that so-called 'real world' flying is different than the training environment, but I think we need to focus more on human factors and pilot decision making and the effects of our choices and actions rather than demonstrating poor airmanship skills.
I can recall my first job flying a C-206 in northern Alberta fresh out of flight school with a couple hundred hours under my belt, and having to make some 'real world' flying decisions when the weather was MVFR or the aircraft would be heavy. Ultimately it comes down to the PIC's choice on what he/she wants to do in any given situation.
Remember it's your life and license/career on the line, not to mention the lives of your passengers. Take your flying responsiblity as just that....an opportunity to make wise choices and live to talk about it.
Safe flying everyone.
"Come down, your head is in the sky, feet on the ground...come down."
This thread is taking a bit of a turn, perhaps I can spin it again...
What if students were trained in aircraft at gross weight with an aft C of G. Within the envelope of course. Would this not be valuable experience to add to all the "half-tanks and one passenger" time?
Now perhaps fly this aircraft from grass/gravel on a warm day?
Or maybe we should wait till they have their first job and are on their own, because we know Mr Owner will ONLY send him/her out with a legal load to take from an acceptable strip.
What if students were trained in aircraft at gross weight with an aft C of G. Within the envelope of course. Would this not be valuable experience to add to all the "half-tanks and one passenger" time?
Now perhaps fly this aircraft from grass/gravel on a warm day?
Or maybe we should wait till they have their first job and are on their own, because we know Mr Owner will ONLY send him/her out with a legal load to take from an acceptable strip.
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I'd Rather Be Flying
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There is still a fine line between training and the real world. Owners/operators should be responsible for setting the example for each individual company. Of course this doesn't always happen because there are always time pressures, monetary pressures, weather limitations, etc. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't be the other way around.
Our CP makes sure that overall operations are conducted safely. But the PIC has the final word. After all, they are the ones responsible. If you're worried about the flight, or it just doesn't seem right, then you're probably right.
Trust your own decision making.
Our CP makes sure that overall operations are conducted safely. But the PIC has the final word. After all, they are the ones responsible. If you're worried about the flight, or it just doesn't seem right, then you're probably right.
Trust your own decision making.
"Come down, your head is in the sky, feet on the ground...come down."
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Cat Driver
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xsbank :
Was that accident out of Norman Wells in a DC3 that smacked a mountain top doing a let down using an ADF back bearing??
Cat
Was that accident out of Norman Wells in a DC3 that smacked a mountain top doing a let down using an ADF back bearing??
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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tailgunner
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- Joined: Mon May 17, 2004 4:03 pm
As a seasoned charter pilot ( lots of PIC on Navajo's, King Airs Etc.) I often find myself "instructing" new hire pilots on the little tips that may save their bacon later, especially when it is their turn flying single pilot IFR. I do not condone, nor accept the deliberate overloading of A/C, however , we have all seen the "standard male", now add 8 of them plus bags....and you might be at gross on paper but,...with a little inflight icing, maybe the heavy one is in the rear seat.... you get my drift....if you fly the numbers you may be in trouble, so a little training or advice on how to handle an aircraft in this situation is, I believe, extremely valuable.
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tailgunner
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Continuing on, I remember a tip that an ol' salty once gave me when I was new. He said it isn't necessarily the weight that will get you it is the balance...." Now this was advice from someone who had 10000 hrs. I never heard anything like that from my instructor because A/c were never meant to fly over gross! end of discussion. Watching a WW2 documentary the other night, the pilots of thew Lancs, 17's , 24's and almost any other A/C always flew well above their gross T/O limit... I just want their lessons passed on.
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Cat Driver
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Tailgunner :
How true, how true....
Nothing like the real world to level the playing field.
Where this all unravels is when we have an accident and even though we used the " Book " numbers the fuc.in thing gets weighed and suprise it was over gross alowable, then it reverts back to us......
...its a tough job, and we must err on the side of safety......
The last time I flew an ambhib float plane was for a heli logging company and the first time I had some concern with weight I asked the guys what they weighed, well they were really affronted that I would ask because all the other pilots just flew them withoput asking about weight.
To make a long story short I got the log book out and showed them the numbers.
I then explained how the airplane becomes progressivly more dangerous as the weight is exceeded.
I then gave them a piece of paper and asked them to put in the correct numbers for what they had for baggage, saws and their true weight......then add it to the airplane weight as parked with fuel.
We did two trips because they understood.
Once they understood I never ever had to check what they wanted to fly in that 206 again, because they also wanted to go home after work.
Remember these were loggers, the toughest SOB's you want to deal with, but they also wanted to live and I never ever had any trouble with any of them as far as weight was concerned.
Cat
How true, how true....
Nothing like the real world to level the playing field.
Where this all unravels is when we have an accident and even though we used the " Book " numbers the fuc.in thing gets weighed and suprise it was over gross alowable, then it reverts back to us......
...its a tough job, and we must err on the side of safety......
The last time I flew an ambhib float plane was for a heli logging company and the first time I had some concern with weight I asked the guys what they weighed, well they were really affronted that I would ask because all the other pilots just flew them withoput asking about weight.
To make a long story short I got the log book out and showed them the numbers.
I then explained how the airplane becomes progressivly more dangerous as the weight is exceeded.
I then gave them a piece of paper and asked them to put in the correct numbers for what they had for baggage, saws and their true weight......then add it to the airplane weight as parked with fuel.
We did two trips because they understood.
Once they understood I never ever had to check what they wanted to fly in that 206 again, because they also wanted to go home after work.
Remember these were loggers, the toughest SOB's you want to deal with, but they also wanted to live and I never ever had any trouble with any of them as far as weight was concerned.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Hi Cat - it was a DC-3 (how did you know??) but it was not in the Wells. If I told you where it was you would know who I was talking about and I won't go there. Funny how I still have a Dac on my license but I haven't been in one for almost 25 years. Have to admit the PPC-thing makes sense, but where could I find a DC-3 sim? My manual's gettin' a bit mouldy but I bet I could still drive one...come to think of it, perhaps that's not all that's getting mouldy.
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Watching a WW2 documentary the other night, the pilots of thew Lancs, 17's , 24's and almost any other A/C always flew well above their gross T/O limit... I just want their lessons passed on."
The lesson of flying a/c over-gross during times of war doesn't relate well to flying a King Air over gross because an extra passenger showed up.
The lesson of flying a/c over-gross during times of war doesn't relate well to flying a King Air over gross because an extra passenger showed up.
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tailgunner
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Pika, thanks for stateing the obvious. but if you look deeper you would see that these pilots, like pilots today, need training, advice, teaching on how to fly the airplane when indeed it is no longer by the book. They relied on, as do experienced pilots today, on some rules of thumb or "bush lessons" that I am advocating we teach are newer pilots.
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I'd Rather Be Flying
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The difficulty comes in how to define "experience". Every operation, every airplane, each airstrip, each flight for that matter, is different in nature. Weather changes, weights change, destinations change.
Learning to adapt to changing situations is the key.
Commercial training teaches you many things but does not necessarily prepare you at all for the things you will encounter in everyday, real life, flying.
If each operational need were the same, then teaching how to fly 'heavy' or with a slightly aft C of G would be easy, but as mentioned, no two situations are the same.
Stick to the rules when learning and teaching; when you do finally get to the first real work place, ask those who have been there for a while and are still alive to talk about it to provide some tips on what works for them.
My 2 cents.
Learning to adapt to changing situations is the key.
Commercial training teaches you many things but does not necessarily prepare you at all for the things you will encounter in everyday, real life, flying.
If each operational need were the same, then teaching how to fly 'heavy' or with a slightly aft C of G would be easy, but as mentioned, no two situations are the same.
Stick to the rules when learning and teaching; when you do finally get to the first real work place, ask those who have been there for a while and are still alive to talk about it to provide some tips on what works for them.
My 2 cents.
"Come down, your head is in the sky, feet on the ground...come down."
First of all, everybody is saying: "I broke a lot of rules a long time ago, but I don't do it anymore." That is the reason why we should teach students how to do it wisely... We all know the guy will t/o overweight, fly vfr in imc, even though everybody tells him not to do it. Pilots learn from THEIR mistakes, and later on they can relate to their past experiences to understand what Cat is talking about and finally learn from HIS mistakes...
That's my opinion. I'm not sure how it should be done though. That is not my job anymore
Benwa
That's my opinion. I'm not sure how it should be done though. That is not my job anymore
Benwa
