I copied this from a forum I wrote it on in Pprune several years ago and thought I would post it here.
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When ever the flair height and where to look discussion comes up it never ceases to amaze me at how few Instructors understand the subject.
If you are not capable of accurately judging the flare height and the hold off height you are guaranteed to have poor landing skills.
The biggest problem in teaching landings is looking in the wrong area to judge height..... it is as simple as that.... if you cannot accurately judge your height above the runway you are not landing you are arriving.
And it is not possible to accurately judge height above the runway by looking at the far end...... period ......
I know this is the private pilot thread, however that does not mean that private pilots should not understand how to land properly.
The problem of course is poor instructors.
Some comments on how to land.
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Cat Driver
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Some comments on how to land.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Cat Driver
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To properly judge flare height you " MUST " use the area of the runway where you plan to flare as your center of sight point.
By keeping the planned flair point as your aim point during the final approach it will be your most accurate method of flairing in the proper place.
You must use the same point on the runway that you used for the approach to properly judge the correct flare height.
Any instructor who teaches you to look at the far end of the runway does not understand the correct method to judge height and or distance during the most critical part of the approach and landing.
The landing flare and hold off is the most difficult to re teach of all the bad habits that I find when re training pilots in my advanced flying program.
And there should be no reason for pilots to be taught voodoo type garbage such as look at the far end of the runway, because it just plain is not correct. The farther you look from the area where you wish to flare and land the less accurate your judgement of height above the runway will be.
Nothing annoy's me more than sloppy approaches and landings.
By keeping the planned flair point as your aim point during the final approach it will be your most accurate method of flairing in the proper place.
You must use the same point on the runway that you used for the approach to properly judge the correct flare height.
Any instructor who teaches you to look at the far end of the runway does not understand the correct method to judge height and or distance during the most critical part of the approach and landing.
The landing flare and hold off is the most difficult to re teach of all the bad habits that I find when re training pilots in my advanced flying program.
And there should be no reason for pilots to be taught voodoo type garbage such as look at the far end of the runway, because it just plain is not correct. The farther you look from the area where you wish to flare and land the less accurate your judgement of height above the runway will be.
Nothing annoy's me more than sloppy approaches and landings.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Cat Driver
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I will try and describe how I teach correct height judgement for the flare and height judgement after the flare.
First the flare:
I use a definiable point on the runway as the flare point, usually the first big hash marks and runway numbers. This is the aim point on final, during the last fifty feet in a small airplane the aim point will start to grow in size and also appear to spread out in your vision, at about twenty feet the picture will become quite clear that you are about to fly into the runway. It is at this point that I start the flare with most light bug smashers.
Note:
Rather than describe to the student what I am seeing I have them memorize what they observe at the flare point, this avoids any missunderstanding of what I am trying to describe. By using this method the student will quickly imprint the picture that she / he is seeing.
Once the flare is started you then look straight ahead down the runway to the point where apparent movement of the runway markers stop.
What is................... " Apparent movement of the runway " ..........
There is a point ahead of the airplane where the eye will pick up the movement of the runway towards the airplane. This point will change with the speed of the airplane.
For little Bug Smashers that approach in the 50 to 70 knot speed envelope the apparent movement of the runway,,, runway marks, will be approximately five hundred feet ahead of the airplane.
That is the distance ahead of the airplane that your center of sight should be aimed at. This will give you the proper picture that will allow you to best judge height.
The reason that this works is you can "see" the runway get closer in your peripheral vision as the runway movement close to the airplane changes. Also you can "see" the far end of the runway in the top of your peripheral vision, this is your attitude guide that allows you to change the attitude as speed and lift decays.
Ideally the airplane should contact the runway in the attitude that the stall occurs. ( Except wheel landings in taildraggers. )
If the nose blocks out your view ahead as you increase the nose up attitude during the hold off all you need do is move your head and sight line to the side and look along the side nose at the runway still using the same distance ahead that gives the picture that you need. Where apparent movement stops.
Note as you slow down the runway movement picture moves progressively closer. ( About three to five hundred feet ahead is just about right at touch down.
I have an excellent movie that was taken at Airbus Industries during my A320 training and I use it when describing what to look for when determining where the apparent runway movement stops. The beauty of the movie is I can stop it and show the point on the runway where this occurs, then start it up again.
Also the movie is perfect for the flare picture, the A320 approaches at a higher speed than a light aircraft but the picture remains the same when looking at the flare point, it just happens faster. ( oh by the way you don't actually flare an A320 like you do a Bug Smasher but the height judgement is the same. ( aided by the computer voice giving you exact height. )
I am willing to keep answering any and all questions about how I teach height and speed judgement, all I wish to do is make flying safer and easier for those who fly for the love of it.
My system works because I have been perfecting it for fifty years and I used to teach crop dusting where if you do not know how to accurately judge height and speed you die.
So if you all want me to keep explaining my method I am willing to type until everyone understands how I do it.
By the way:::
I use a camcorder for all my advanced flight training, when the student fu..s up it is easy to review it right after the flight and explain where it started to go wrong and how to prevent repeating the fu.. up.
First the flare:
I use a definiable point on the runway as the flare point, usually the first big hash marks and runway numbers. This is the aim point on final, during the last fifty feet in a small airplane the aim point will start to grow in size and also appear to spread out in your vision, at about twenty feet the picture will become quite clear that you are about to fly into the runway. It is at this point that I start the flare with most light bug smashers.
Note:
Rather than describe to the student what I am seeing I have them memorize what they observe at the flare point, this avoids any missunderstanding of what I am trying to describe. By using this method the student will quickly imprint the picture that she / he is seeing.
Once the flare is started you then look straight ahead down the runway to the point where apparent movement of the runway markers stop.
What is................... " Apparent movement of the runway " ..........
There is a point ahead of the airplane where the eye will pick up the movement of the runway towards the airplane. This point will change with the speed of the airplane.
For little Bug Smashers that approach in the 50 to 70 knot speed envelope the apparent movement of the runway,,, runway marks, will be approximately five hundred feet ahead of the airplane.
That is the distance ahead of the airplane that your center of sight should be aimed at. This will give you the proper picture that will allow you to best judge height.
The reason that this works is you can "see" the runway get closer in your peripheral vision as the runway movement close to the airplane changes. Also you can "see" the far end of the runway in the top of your peripheral vision, this is your attitude guide that allows you to change the attitude as speed and lift decays.
Ideally the airplane should contact the runway in the attitude that the stall occurs. ( Except wheel landings in taildraggers. )
If the nose blocks out your view ahead as you increase the nose up attitude during the hold off all you need do is move your head and sight line to the side and look along the side nose at the runway still using the same distance ahead that gives the picture that you need. Where apparent movement stops.
Note as you slow down the runway movement picture moves progressively closer. ( About three to five hundred feet ahead is just about right at touch down.
I have an excellent movie that was taken at Airbus Industries during my A320 training and I use it when describing what to look for when determining where the apparent runway movement stops. The beauty of the movie is I can stop it and show the point on the runway where this occurs, then start it up again.
Also the movie is perfect for the flare picture, the A320 approaches at a higher speed than a light aircraft but the picture remains the same when looking at the flare point, it just happens faster. ( oh by the way you don't actually flare an A320 like you do a Bug Smasher but the height judgement is the same. ( aided by the computer voice giving you exact height. )
I am willing to keep answering any and all questions about how I teach height and speed judgement, all I wish to do is make flying safer and easier for those who fly for the love of it.
My system works because I have been perfecting it for fifty years and I used to teach crop dusting where if you do not know how to accurately judge height and speed you die.
So if you all want me to keep explaining my method I am willing to type until everyone understands how I do it.
By the way:::
I use a camcorder for all my advanced flight training, when the student fu..s up it is easy to review it right after the flight and explain where it started to go wrong and how to prevent repeating the fu.. up.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Cat Driver
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So lets break this down into three distinct phases of the approach and landing.
Phase one:::
The final approach..........your center of sight should be the area on the runway where you plan to flare for the landing.
Phase two:::
The actual flare from the approach attitude to flight parrallel to the runway, to best judge the closure rate and thus your height above the flare point ( that area of the runway where you have planned to change attitude to parrellel the runway ) you should still have your center of sight focused on this point.
Phase three:::
The remainder of the landing phase..........the hold off in the level attitude where speed and lift decays and the airplane sinks toward touch down on the runway........... when you were in the approach attitude you were looking straight ahead at the runway so when the flare starts if you remain looking straight ahead your field of vision will rotate with the attitude change and you will be now looking straight ahead down the runway..........
What seperates a good pilot from a zombie waiting for contact with mother earth is the pilot who can accurately judge height and sink rate to the touchdown while constantly adjusting attitude so as to land at the most desireable attitude...speed.... sink rate for the aircraft being flown.....
Now would you try something next time you are driving down one of your Motorways? At normal motorway speed note the movement of the center line hash marks ( or center line stripes. )
You will note that directly in front of your car the stripes are blurred do to the fast movement of your closure on them.....now look progressively farther ahead and there will be a fixed distance ahead where the apparent movement of the stripes do not seem to be moving toward you.....this will be several hundred feet ahead of your vehicle depending on your eye height above the road and your speed...... that is the distance ahead that will give the best visual clues for speed , height and sink rate......
This is because your eyes will be able to compute your position in space by comparing near...center...and far distances to best form the picture...
So.......as Wolfgang stated you look well foward at a distance of several hundred feet ahead of the airplane...
But that is only after you have actually changed your attitude from the approcah attitude to the actual flare....
P.S.
Dont crash your car while playing around with the road stripes picture
Phase one:::
The final approach..........your center of sight should be the area on the runway where you plan to flare for the landing.
Phase two:::
The actual flare from the approach attitude to flight parrallel to the runway, to best judge the closure rate and thus your height above the flare point ( that area of the runway where you have planned to change attitude to parrellel the runway ) you should still have your center of sight focused on this point.
Phase three:::
The remainder of the landing phase..........the hold off in the level attitude where speed and lift decays and the airplane sinks toward touch down on the runway........... when you were in the approach attitude you were looking straight ahead at the runway so when the flare starts if you remain looking straight ahead your field of vision will rotate with the attitude change and you will be now looking straight ahead down the runway..........
What seperates a good pilot from a zombie waiting for contact with mother earth is the pilot who can accurately judge height and sink rate to the touchdown while constantly adjusting attitude so as to land at the most desireable attitude...speed.... sink rate for the aircraft being flown.....
Now would you try something next time you are driving down one of your Motorways? At normal motorway speed note the movement of the center line hash marks ( or center line stripes. )
You will note that directly in front of your car the stripes are blurred do to the fast movement of your closure on them.....now look progressively farther ahead and there will be a fixed distance ahead where the apparent movement of the stripes do not seem to be moving toward you.....this will be several hundred feet ahead of your vehicle depending on your eye height above the road and your speed...... that is the distance ahead that will give the best visual clues for speed , height and sink rate......
This is because your eyes will be able to compute your position in space by comparing near...center...and far distances to best form the picture...
So.......as Wolfgang stated you look well foward at a distance of several hundred feet ahead of the airplane...
But that is only after you have actually changed your attitude from the approcah attitude to the actual flare....
P.S.
Dont crash your car while playing around with the road stripes picture
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
If I ever decide to learn to fly...you are going to teach me.
I'll do it all off the books and actually LEARN how to fly.
I'll do it all off the books and actually LEARN how to fly.
"FLY THE AIRPLANE"!
http://www.youtube.com/hazatude
http://www.youtube.com/hazatude
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Cat Driver
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Haz, when I get my Cub flying on floats next year come on out and we can fly the west coast of the Island.
By the way, how many women do you need me to corral before you get here?
By the way, how many women do you need me to corral before you get here?
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Cat Driver
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gr8gazu :
Thanks, someone has to care about our little corner of the working world.
If nothing else I would like to see the industry teach flying first and operating once flying has been mastered.
I was fortunate enough to have been friends with Ernest Gann and we used to talk about how the schools turn out robots rather than aviators.
Ernest was a true aviator and one of my heros and he would be happy to see someone trying to keep the flying brotherhood aiming to be aviators rather than robots.
Cat
Thanks, someone has to care about our little corner of the working world.
If nothing else I would like to see the industry teach flying first and operating once flying has been mastered.
I was fortunate enough to have been friends with Ernest Gann and we used to talk about how the schools turn out robots rather than aviators.
Ernest was a true aviator and one of my heros and he would be happy to see someone trying to keep the flying brotherhood aiming to be aviators rather than robots.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Cat,
As you know, the industry is no longer about teaching operating. Everything is geared around ticking the boxes required per approved lesson plans. I have never been an instructor but have always been a teacher. It is the way the industry used to work..
I was fortunate to have had some excellent instructors out at Skyways when I started. There was a lot of information to be had if you showed the desire and ability to listen. I still pass on information to those that want it. The rest had better learn their SOP's.
As you know, the industry is no longer about teaching operating. Everything is geared around ticking the boxes required per approved lesson plans. I have never been an instructor but have always been a teacher. It is the way the industry used to work..
I was fortunate to have had some excellent instructors out at Skyways when I started. There was a lot of information to be had if you showed the desire and ability to listen. I still pass on information to those that want it. The rest had better learn their SOP's.
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Cat Driver
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I try and get my folks to teach making the area between the threshold, and the "numbers" the 'point of zero movement', or the target. If the field is short, they can then make the necessary adjustments to make the 'point of zero movement' some point closer to them. It also makles it easier for them to maximize the amount of usable runway from over an obstacle. Keep the far end of the landing area off in your peripheral, and don't really focus on it until you start to level out after the initial approach.
Cat, I've been patiently waiting for oh, about 2 years now, for you to finally come right out and tell us what your preferred method is! Secretly, I think I was worried I've been doing it wrong!!
Cat, I've been patiently waiting for oh, about 2 years now, for you to finally come right out and tell us what your preferred method is! Secretly, I think I was worried I've been doing it wrong!!
Aviation- the hardest way possible to make an easy living!
"You can bomb the world to pieces, but you can't bomb it into peace!" Michael Franti- Spearhead
"Trust everyone, but cut the cards". My Grandma.
"You can bomb the world to pieces, but you can't bomb it into peace!" Michael Franti- Spearhead
"Trust everyone, but cut the cards". My Grandma.
Interestingly enough, Cat...
I have had the privilege of teaching many students basic flight training, both young and old. In my travels, I have found that different people see things in many ways...
In daylight flying, I have found that most people learn to land well using the techniques you suggest. Not all. Some students would not successfully land until I had *insisted* that they look to the end of the runway. Maybe they had vision issues (should be wearing glasses but not).
When training students at night, I find that if they don't look at the end of the runway, we tend to have issues.
People learn differently. Adjust your methods to suit them.
-Guy
I have had the privilege of teaching many students basic flight training, both young and old. In my travels, I have found that different people see things in many ways...
In daylight flying, I have found that most people learn to land well using the techniques you suggest. Not all. Some students would not successfully land until I had *insisted* that they look to the end of the runway. Maybe they had vision issues (should be wearing glasses but not).
When training students at night, I find that if they don't look at the end of the runway, we tend to have issues.
People learn differently. Adjust your methods to suit them.
-Guy
Cat,
Thanks for the tips. I have been instructing for a few months now and have been finding that teaching the flare can be quite challenging with some students. Some get it right away and others take along time. Always found it challenging to articulate how to judge the runway height. I will try your advice over the next few weeks and see if it helps. Any advice specific to teaching wheel landings on tail draggers?
Cheers
Thanks for the tips. I have been instructing for a few months now and have been finding that teaching the flare can be quite challenging with some students. Some get it right away and others take along time. Always found it challenging to articulate how to judge the runway height. I will try your advice over the next few weeks and see if it helps. Any advice specific to teaching wheel landings on tail draggers?
Cheers
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Cat Driver
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Mr Jones:
When teaching people how to judge the flare height ( The transition form the approach attitude to the level attitude parallel with the landing surface. ) what I do is.
1) Explain exactly what I want the student to do and why.
2) I first fly the exercise and verbalize what I am looking at and call out the height above the surface from fifty feet to the flare height and have the student watch and form the picture in their own minds.
3) Usually you will be able to tell just how much they are absorbing by watching their facial expression and their body language.
4) I then have the student fly the exercise and call out the height above the surface to help them verify what they are seeing is what they are doing. 50-40-30-25-20-15 flare....
And I use a camcorder to film the exercise..during the debrief I have the student use a laser pointer to show me where they were looking and what they thought they were seeing.
The camcorder film is the property of the student.
" Any advice specific to teaching wheel landings on tail draggers? "
Yes, but that is a subject that is even less understood by most instructors than how to fly kiddy cars.
If I do decide to go into how to fly tail wheel airplanes be prepared for lots of flack from the "experts" out there who will disagree with my methods.
When teaching people how to judge the flare height ( The transition form the approach attitude to the level attitude parallel with the landing surface. ) what I do is.
1) Explain exactly what I want the student to do and why.
2) I first fly the exercise and verbalize what I am looking at and call out the height above the surface from fifty feet to the flare height and have the student watch and form the picture in their own minds.
3) Usually you will be able to tell just how much they are absorbing by watching their facial expression and their body language.
4) I then have the student fly the exercise and call out the height above the surface to help them verify what they are seeing is what they are doing. 50-40-30-25-20-15 flare....
And I use a camcorder to film the exercise..during the debrief I have the student use a laser pointer to show me where they were looking and what they thought they were seeing.
The camcorder film is the property of the student.
" Any advice specific to teaching wheel landings on tail draggers? "
Yes, but that is a subject that is even less understood by most instructors than how to fly kiddy cars.
If I do decide to go into how to fly tail wheel airplanes be prepared for lots of flack from the "experts" out there who will disagree with my methods.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Cat Driver
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Morning TC Guy, how's life at Puzzle Palace these days? 
" In daylight flying, I have found that most people learn to land well using the techniques you suggest. Not all. Some students would not successfully land until I had *insisted* that they look to the end of the runway. Maybe they had vision issues (should be wearing glasses but not). "
Fair enough, but in that case they will never be able to accurately judge height.
" People learn differently. Adjust your methods to suit them. "
And having learned all these methods and worked out a set of teaching aids I go back to basics and teach them to do it right before I go on to another exercise. The bottom line is my teaching methods work, otherwise I would not get paid the rate I charge.
Cat
" In daylight flying, I have found that most people learn to land well using the techniques you suggest. Not all. Some students would not successfully land until I had *insisted* that they look to the end of the runway. Maybe they had vision issues (should be wearing glasses but not). "
Fair enough, but in that case they will never be able to accurately judge height.
" People learn differently. Adjust your methods to suit them. "
And having learned all these methods and worked out a set of teaching aids I go back to basics and teach them to do it right before I go on to another exercise. The bottom line is my teaching methods work, otherwise I would not get paid the rate I charge.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Cat Driver
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Cat,
I would really like to open up the wheel landing can of worms. I bought a great little “old school” tail dragger a while back (Luscombe). I’ve had no formal tail wheel training at all. The only training I had was bombing around in a Pacer with a skilled spry pilot that let me land it a few times, always 3 point. Then when I bought my plane I did a .7 checkout with the former owner. I was on my way never having seen a 2 point landing from the cockpit.
Since then I have put on a few hundred hours and I’m now good at 1, 2 or 3 point landings. I would like to here YOUR theory on how to properly do a wheel landing. Speed above the stall for 2 point and if you prefer 1, 2 or 3 point with a stiff crosswind.
I find myself looking for new challenges while landing as a source of fun at the end of my work day. Right now one wheel landings are pretty entertaining dragging down the runway on one main, switching from one tire to the other. I’m wondering how much of a challenge its going to be to only let the tail wheel down on a touch and go. Dragging the runway in slow flight with only the little wheel rolling.
Thanks
I would really like to open up the wheel landing can of worms. I bought a great little “old school” tail dragger a while back (Luscombe). I’ve had no formal tail wheel training at all. The only training I had was bombing around in a Pacer with a skilled spry pilot that let me land it a few times, always 3 point. Then when I bought my plane I did a .7 checkout with the former owner. I was on my way never having seen a 2 point landing from the cockpit.
Since then I have put on a few hundred hours and I’m now good at 1, 2 or 3 point landings. I would like to here YOUR theory on how to properly do a wheel landing. Speed above the stall for 2 point and if you prefer 1, 2 or 3 point with a stiff crosswind.
I find myself looking for new challenges while landing as a source of fun at the end of my work day. Right now one wheel landings are pretty entertaining dragging down the runway on one main, switching from one tire to the other. I’m wondering how much of a challenge its going to be to only let the tail wheel down on a touch and go. Dragging the runway in slow flight with only the little wheel rolling.
Thanks
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Cat Driver
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" Since then I have put on a few hundred hours and I’m now good at 1, 2 or 3 point landings. I would like to here YOUR theory on how to properly do a wheel landing. Speed above the stall for 2 point and if you prefer 1, 2 or 3 point with a stiff crosswind "
Sounds like you are doing O.K. if you have not wrecked the thing yet.
As to the X/wind question, always wheel land as you have far better directional control and a go around is less problem if it starts to out think you.
By the way I concentrate on wheel landings first, then teach the three point full stall.
But before I even take e'm flying they must be able to run up and down the runway with the tail in the air and show they can S turn down the runway.
Sounds like you are doing O.K. if you have not wrecked the thing yet.
As to the X/wind question, always wheel land as you have far better directional control and a go around is less problem if it starts to out think you.
By the way I concentrate on wheel landings first, then teach the three point full stall.
But before I even take e'm flying they must be able to run up and down the runway with the tail in the air and show they can S turn down the runway.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Hiya IR. This isn't really for you (you know all this stuff already), more for the other people reading ...how to properly do a wheel landing
This is a pretty type-specific (not to mention subjective!) question, but ... I personally prefer the tail-low wheel landing. Too many people add way too much approach speed when they first start doing wheel landings, and as a general rule of thumb, the slower the speed at touchdown, the better. Less wear and tear on the tires, bearings and brakes, less energy to dissipate if anything goes wrong, and most importantly, the slower that stuff happens, the easier it is to observe and react correctly.
The biggest problem most people have with wheel landings, is that if you don't get a greaser touchdown, since the center of mass is located behind the main gear, it continues to travel downwards, pulling the tail down, increasing the AOA and launching you into the air with no airspeed, which pretty much ensures that the next touchdown isn't going to be very smooth, either.
Here's a tip: sideslip, even if there isn't any crosswind. Add a tiny bit of throttle for the additional drag of the slip, and when you touch down on one main, if it's not a greaser, the OTHER main comes down instead of the tail, and you don't get catapulted back into the air.
It depends on the type of aircraft, but generally for tailwheel training, I start off with 3-pt landings, with the stick ALL the way back after touchdown, so the student can concentrate on using his feet to stay straight on the rollout. Once he's got that under control, time to learn wheel landings, which require that the student additionally control the aircraft in pitch, at the same time he's staying straight with his feet.
As far as a stiff crosswind goes ... my opinion is probably blatant heresy, but I keep thinking, the tail has gotta come down sometime. The conventional wisdom is "wheel landing in a crosswind" which does work, and is great fun, but sooner or later you're going to lower the tail, and guess what - you're 3-pointing it. All you're really doing is delaying the inevitable. I have get to encounter a crosswind in which I cannot 3-pt a Pitts - actually it's 2-pt, upwind main and tail at the same time, stick over and downwind main in the air in the rollout.
But I do sympathize with people with very light wing loadings and very slow stall speeds - if you're not sure whether or not your aircraft is controllable in a 3-pt attitude in that much crosswind, it's best to wheel it on first, not unlike dipping your toe in a very cold pool
Quite difficult ... old B.D. Maule (ever meet him? Wonderful old guy) used to recommend what he called the "double whomp" landing for short field. You slow down, onto the back side of the power curve, dragging it in with power, and the nose is quite high, and the tail is quite low.I’m wondering how much of a challenge its going to be to only let the tail wheel down on a touch and go.
The tail touches first, then the mains. This decreases the AOA - you aren't flying any more. And because you minimized your kinetic energy (which is a function of the SQUARE of your approach speed) you don't take very long to get stopped.
So the trick for you is to touch the tailwheel down VERY GENTLY, and as soon as it does, be ready with the power to keep the nose up.
I think you need to meet Skip Stewart. He does this most amazing slow-speedo knife edge pass, hanging off his 330hp 3-blade prop - you would approve
Usual disclaimer: I am personally extremely disliked by Transport, so even though I am an airshow pilot with an Engineering degree from Queen's University, I probably don't know as much about stick and rudder flying as any Transport Canada Inspector.
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Cat Driver
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Hiya .! I hope it was obvious that my comments were directed towards light single-engine aircraft ... obviously, with a multi-engine tailwheel aircraft such as a Lancaster, a DC-3 or Beech 18, other considerations come into play, such as:
1) safe approach speed on short final. Even if you're not at blue line (Vyse) you're probably going to want to be above red line (Vmc) and with that airspeed, the incidence and the angle of attack required to produce sufficient lift is going to have the tail in the air.
2) structural strength of the tailwheel. Obviously that itty bitty thing is NOT going to be as strong as the main gear!
Given the above, wheel landings are much more the norm for multi-engine tailwheel aircraft, which unfortuately these days are rarely found outside museums
This summer, I was told at the Geneseo air show (4600 foot grass strip) that the Lancaster would not fly into that runway. I'm not sure if it was the length that wasn't sufficient for them, or if they didn't like grass (!).
Not many multi-engine taildraggers around (or people that know how to fly them).
1) safe approach speed on short final. Even if you're not at blue line (Vyse) you're probably going to want to be above red line (Vmc) and with that airspeed, the incidence and the angle of attack required to produce sufficient lift is going to have the tail in the air.
2) structural strength of the tailwheel. Obviously that itty bitty thing is NOT going to be as strong as the main gear!
Given the above, wheel landings are much more the norm for multi-engine tailwheel aircraft, which unfortuately these days are rarely found outside museums
This summer, I was told at the Geneseo air show (4600 foot grass strip) that the Lancaster would not fly into that runway. I'm not sure if it was the length that wasn't sufficient for them, or if they didn't like grass (!).
Not many multi-engine taildraggers around (or people that know how to fly them).
Thanks Hedley.
There are a few things that make me choose a 2 or 3 point landing, the surface, traffic running up my tail, my mood and the wind. I would guess I use 3 point about 70% of the time just because I don’t have to think for as long and I feel it’s easier on the gear to land slower. Once my plane is in the 3 point attitude it is totally done flying, little chance of getting it back in the air once the tail has touched. I have played with both wheel & 3 point in a X-wind and normally do a main/tail or 3 point rather then a wheel landing. The Luscombe has decent rudder authority at slow speeds (not that I have anything to compare it to) so its just as easy to stall it on and only have to worry about my feet and not the wing flying if I catch a gust.
Again thinking about the tail wheel only T&G. I’m not sure if I’ll be able to keep a high enough AOA on the wing and hold enough power one to keep the tail plane working. Also I have some concern about the way the tail plane will be entering a sort of ground effect because its only 30”or from the ground when the tail wheel is on the ground. I’m not sure if my elevator is going stall because of the hard surface being so close on the “top” side of the tail plane.
What are some other fun challenges to test my skill on landing? My little 85hp continental hasent got quite enough balls to do any sort of knife edging. Hmm maybe a NOS kit is in order?
Cat
I’ll take a guess at why you wheel the DC3 and T18 on most of the time.
-You would have more control lowering a heavily loaded tail.
-Torque affects would be reduced if the radials are idling vs pitching up in the flare depending how heavily loaded the wing is and if power is needed to arrest the descent.
-A lack of rudder authority at lower speeds that can be substituted with brakes once the mains are down in the two point stance. Visibility could also be a factor for some aircraft.
I really have no idea about those planes at all, I have never been within 50’of either.
I’m going up this afternoon and I may try the tail wheel T&G. It should be fun.
Cheers
There are a few things that make me choose a 2 or 3 point landing, the surface, traffic running up my tail, my mood and the wind. I would guess I use 3 point about 70% of the time just because I don’t have to think for as long and I feel it’s easier on the gear to land slower. Once my plane is in the 3 point attitude it is totally done flying, little chance of getting it back in the air once the tail has touched. I have played with both wheel & 3 point in a X-wind and normally do a main/tail or 3 point rather then a wheel landing. The Luscombe has decent rudder authority at slow speeds (not that I have anything to compare it to) so its just as easy to stall it on and only have to worry about my feet and not the wing flying if I catch a gust.
Again thinking about the tail wheel only T&G. I’m not sure if I’ll be able to keep a high enough AOA on the wing and hold enough power one to keep the tail plane working. Also I have some concern about the way the tail plane will be entering a sort of ground effect because its only 30”or from the ground when the tail wheel is on the ground. I’m not sure if my elevator is going stall because of the hard surface being so close on the “top” side of the tail plane.
What are some other fun challenges to test my skill on landing? My little 85hp continental hasent got quite enough balls to do any sort of knife edging. Hmm maybe a NOS kit is in order?
Cat
I’ll take a guess at why you wheel the DC3 and T18 on most of the time.
-You would have more control lowering a heavily loaded tail.
-Torque affects would be reduced if the radials are idling vs pitching up in the flare depending how heavily loaded the wing is and if power is needed to arrest the descent.
-A lack of rudder authority at lower speeds that can be substituted with brakes once the mains are down in the two point stance. Visibility could also be a factor for some aircraft.
I really have no idea about those planes at all, I have never been within 50’of either.
I’m going up this afternoon and I may try the tail wheel T&G. It should be fun.
Cheers
