INSTRUCTORS AND SPINS

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trey kule
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INSTRUCTORS AND SPINS

Post by trey kule » Sat Nov 11, 2006 6:59 am

This topic raised its ugly head again last week and I have to get it off my chest.

We were doing indoctrination training and one of the new hires took me aside and asked if there was going to be any spin training. As he was about to go up in an uncertified for spin, twin engine plane, I first thought he was joking. but he was not. Seems an instrutor, many moons ago, had pulled a "hey watch this" on him. He finished the training but he was , even years later, in mortal fear that someone who was training him would pull the same stupid stunt.

As we do, this ended up being part of a topic at the local watering hole that night, and surprise, surprise, his experience was not an isolated one. Seems there are more than a few instructors , who for whatever reason, want to make spin training, in particular, but lots of the other exercises in general, less a learning situation than a thrill ride.

So, to those instructors today,I claim you have a responsibility. The aircraft is a place to learn. Not to scare your student , show off you superior skills, or try and play wannabee airline pilot. It is not the place to read back instructions and clearances at the speed of sound to impress the folks at ATC. Try and think that 10 or 20 years from now, you will meet up with some of your students and their memories of you will be one of professionalism as an educator.
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Post by niss » Sat Nov 11, 2006 7:12 am

Well said
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Post by Hedley » Sat Nov 11, 2006 7:33 am

Here's an original idea ... if you want to fly aerobatic maneuvers, which a spin clearly is, why not strap on a parachute and go flying in a certified, 2-seat aerobatic aircraft with an aerobatic instructor, to learn about aerobatics?

Seems kinda obvious to me, but many people here hotly argue against it.
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Post by trey kule » Sat Nov 11, 2006 8:29 am

Hedley. Your idea is not without merit, but , it does not address the question of instructor attitude. In fact, a few years ago, in Calgary Springbank, there was a company offering aerobatic training. Their ads in the local newspaper said...and I am not making this up...."Be a man...learn aerobatics."

Dont think they made it, but there were some horror stories.

I was fortunate when I took areobatics the old guy (he was about 40 I think) did not need his ego massaged and taught precision and skill development rather than scare and impress. It was a good experience for me.

So, to get back to your idea. If you could instill confidence in your target customer , I think you might find alot of licensed pilots would very seriously consider taking training. But pilots, and particularily the experienced ones, usually have a healthy respect for the limitations of an aircraft and unfortunately, somewhat less for those who teach and ultimately, control their fate while in the cockpit. As an aside the guys that took "upset training" mentioned that in a few cases they were initially subjected to the " see what could happen" scenario and it kind of spoiled the whole atmosphere of the program for them.. No learning first...

I guess I am hoping some instructors may see themselves in this and make a positive change. And if that , in fact, should come to pass then I will take a stab at converting religious fanatics and dealing with world peace.
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Post by v6g » Sat Nov 11, 2006 10:43 am

Interesting question....

I remember the fear of first doing spins, and the subsequent fear of repeating them throughout my training. It was only during my CPL that I learnt there's nothing really to be scared of.

I'm now training for my instructor rating and wondering how I, as an instructor, can take away the fear for my future students and create a good relaxed learning environment.
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Post by Dominic220 » Sat Nov 11, 2006 1:35 pm

I remember the fear of first doing spins, and the subsequent fear of repeating them throughout my training. It was only during my CPL that I learnt there's nothing really to be scared of.

---

wow... sounds like me... never liked them, hell, first spin I recovered from, I ended up pulling probably about 4g reefing back on the stick... but now I wait around for a good day to get up to 4000 to spin... too bad this time of year is crap for upper air work...
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Post by Wasn't Me » Sat Nov 11, 2006 2:51 pm

Mr. Trey Kule
I was fortunate when I took areobatics the old guy (he was about 40 I think)
I never thought forty was old :? :?
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Re: INSTRUCTORS AND SPINS

Post by Front. » Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:42 pm

trey kule wrote:This topic raised its ugly head again last week and I have to get it off my chest.

We were doing indoctrination training and one of the new hires took me aside and asked if there was going to be any spin training. As he was about to go up in an uncertified for spin, twin engine plane, I first thought he was joking. but he was not. Seems an instrutor, many moons ago, had pulled a "hey watch this" on him. He finished the training but he was , even years later, in mortal fear that someone who was training him would pull the same stupid stunt.

As we do, this ended up being part of a topic at the local watering hole that night, and surprise, surprise, his experience was not an isolated one. Seems there are more than a few instructors , who for whatever reason, want to make spin training, in particular, but lots of the other exercises in general, less a learning situation than a thrill ride.

So, to those instructors today,I claim you have a responsibility. The aircraft is a place to learn. Not to scare your student , show off you superior skills, or try and play wannabee airline pilot. It is not the place to read back instructions and clearances at the speed of sound to impress the folks at ATC. Try and think that 10 or 20 years from now, you will meet up with some of your students and their memories of you will be one of professionalism as an educator.
My instructor i feel ripped me off too.
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Last edited by Front. on Sat Nov 11, 2006 10:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Norskman » Sat Nov 11, 2006 8:50 pm

I loved spins from the first one. I loved em so much that one day my inst. said "Do a stall", and I THOUGHT I heard "Do a spin". Its funny how they start the same way :twisted:

Oops, sorry Mr. Instructor.
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Post by Front. » Sat Nov 11, 2006 10:07 pm

lol nice 8) Yeah i love spins too.
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Post by shitdisturber » Sat Nov 11, 2006 10:29 pm

If you've got an instructor whose mission seems to be to scare the crap out of you; then you need to talk to the CFI and get a new instructor. An instructor's job; besides teaching you how to fly, is to help instill in a student that mystical feeling when it's dead calm at sunset and you realize you're having the time of your life.

For some students, that actually involves spins but they're in the minority. I had one student that I had to do at least one spin for every time we went up together; I can still hear that squeaky little voice as we'd come out the bottom of a spin, "AGAIN!" She didn't care about spinning the airplane herself, she just liked watching the world go by as I did one for her.
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Post by trey kule » Sun Nov 12, 2006 6:13 am

V6G wrote
I'm now training for my instructor rating and wondering how I, as an instructor, can take away the fear for my future students and create a good relaxed learning environment.

Seems like a pretty good question: How about starting a thread on the question?
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Post by Lommer » Sun Nov 12, 2006 10:58 am

Many students have no problems with spins and enjoy them quite a bit - I know I did. Just don't surprise them. Brief the procedure extensively on the ground before you try it. Make sure you ask if they have any questions. Before you do it in the air ask them to quickly run through the procedure to ensure they understand. If they look nervous, reassure them. Also don't tell them that some guy named Hedley on the internet thinks you should be wearing parachutes.
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Post by mcrit » Sun Nov 12, 2006 2:04 pm

A spin is not really a big deal, try and present it to the student that way. Granted, there are a good many pilots in general, (let's not single out instructors here), that look at the a/c as a toy and try to hot dog at the expense of the paying customer.
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Post by beechy » Sun Nov 12, 2006 6:02 pm

Any thoughts on how to present spins to a student who is really scared of them?

I was one and my instructor just took it slow doing wing drops after a stall, eventually i caught on. But if anyone has any other ideas i would love to hear them.

If a spin gets out of control to the point you have to bail, are you really going to be able to get out......

look at top gun, i mean they could barely eject! imagine trying to climb out! just a thought.
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Post by mellow_pilot » Sun Nov 12, 2006 7:32 pm

beechy wrote: look at top gun, i mean they could barely eject! imagine trying to climb out! just a thought.
I hope your doctoral thesis was on sarcasm.
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Post by Blue Side Down » Sun Nov 12, 2006 7:54 pm

beechy wrote:If a spin gets out of control to the point you have to bail, are you really going to be able to get out......

look at top gun, i mean they could barely eject! imagine trying to climb out! just a thought.
If you think you won't be able to... then no, you won't get out- might as well point your toes. Mindset is a powerful thing. If you've briefed the flight/ and yourself(!) properly... you'll be out in plenty of time- just don't hesitate too long or thou shalt inherit the earth nonetheless.

btw.. did I just swallow a hook there? This quote sounds a lot like a 9.9 sputtering by at idle...



In my opinion, the best way to introduce someone to spins, or acro for that matter, is to do a lot of talking. Few people enjoy suprizes in flying- nor do they enjoy the anxiety levels which reamain afterwards during such an 'exciting' flight:"what's he going to do next!?" "when's the next stunt coming?"- or in acro- "holy **** negative g hurts"

So to deal with this, talk talk talk... brief things in detail... no surprizes, no unknowns. If you're going to practice inverted accelerated spins- brief the theory, the method, and the flight. If you're going up to introduce spins for the first time, brief the theory, the method (where to look!), the flight, and then give a confidence booster- maybe go over the spin in detail with a focus on altitudes- this tends to be a big worry in cases- the ground doesn't get close as fast as the kids think it does. Talk them through the spin in a cool manner. You the instructor is calm, your student is calm. Things go smoothly.


In general, such instructors that pull irresponsible stunts like that mentioned in the origional post are no asset to aviation- not in this day and age.

We're all in this together, and stupidty hurts a lot more here...
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Post by Front. » Sun Nov 12, 2006 8:29 pm

so you can get a cherokee in a flat spin? there is actually the risk of not being able to recover from a spin then?

something just like that top gun movie? :shock:
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Post by Dominic220 » Sun Nov 12, 2006 8:39 pm

There's always a risk of something going horribly wrong, and you being unable to recover from the spin. But in all honesty, if the aircraft is properly maintained... you should be trusting it with your life, after all - you looked at the log book (make sure no snags), and did your walk around, right?
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Post by Front. » Sun Nov 12, 2006 8:41 pm

that all being done right... but what the hell, i've never heard of a ga plane go out due to a flat spin :shock:
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Post by beechy » Sun Nov 12, 2006 9:03 pm

the top gun part was a joke.....

Just i have heard stories about people trying to bail from spinning gliders and not being able to get out.....

I suppose there are techniques.....

Thanks for the advice blue side down.....makes sense.....
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Post by Hedley » Sun Nov 12, 2006 9:45 pm

the aircraft is properly maintained... you should be trusting it with your life
Is this a joke, too? Does no one practice forced approaches any more?

I find it bizarre to the point of frightening that the prevailing attitude here seems to be: "Nothing will ever go wrong, and if it does, there's nothing we can do about it anyways".

I think what you're trying to say is that if anything goes wrong, you're a passenger along for the ride to the crash, not a pilot.

I know guys who take safety very seriously. They wear helmets and flame-resistant clothing. 5-point double harnesses. Parachutes.

Then there are the donkeys on this website who remind me of animals crossing the 401 highway - roadkill, it's all a matter of precisely how and when they're going to get hit.
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Post by Front. » Sun Nov 12, 2006 9:53 pm

I agree with you hedly

I read in PDM and it says that"it can happen to you" so something can indeed go wrong.

I practice Precautionarys and Forced Approaches every 30 days... i hope that's good enough.
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Post by mcrit » Sun Nov 12, 2006 11:53 pm

I practice Precautionarys and Forced Approaches every 30 days... i hope that's good enough.
Genuine kudos for that. Some people might argue that you need a parachute for that given that its just about as dangerous as a spin :lol:
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Post by Front. » Mon Nov 13, 2006 12:01 am

no regardless of where my training is at, or if i am just enjoying the privledges, i practice those essential emergency procedures once a month. That way i feel more confident and know exactly what to do if the real case happens.

The way the weather is now, i think my last 2 flights will be 4 weeks apart making both of them forced lol.
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