Renewing a REALLY expired Class II

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just curious
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Renewing a REALLY expired Class II

Post by just curious » Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:30 pm

While I believe I know the answer, here goes:

My Class II lapsed in 86 (yes, back when most airplanes were made out of cloth and wood!). At the time, the Class one was a gift to particularly deserving career CFIs to allow them to renew every three years. The Class II of the day permitted the holder to train instructor candidates.

While I haven't done any instruction for ab intitio or commercial students since then, a substantial part of my work has been in the area of Type and advanced trainig and line indoctrination, as well as flight testing for type and instrument rating issuance and renewal. I would I suppose have had 300 or more recommendations for flight tests for IFR PPC rides.

My question is this:

"Will I need to write only the class 2 exam, then find a class I (or two of them) to recommend me for a flight test; or will I be obliged to commence at the Class IV level again?"

This has just generated a new thought and thus a second question-

"Or would TC recognize my intrinsic worth to the industry and just issue me a class I, along with a plaque and a sincere handshake?"

JC
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Class 2

Post by shamrock104 » Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:34 pm

JC,
you will probably have to do the Class 4 written and of course the ride and you will probably be demoted to Class 3 at a guess. Any more thoughts on this?
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Post by Cat Driver » Fri Apr 27, 2007 4:13 pm

"Or would TC recognize my intrinsic worth to the industry and just issue me a class I, along with a plaque and a sincere handshake?"
Only if you have a personal recommendation from me.
:smt041
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Post by mcrit » Fri Apr 27, 2007 5:10 pm

Regs say that you renew as whatever you expired as. So, worst case you renew as a 2.
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Post by Ralliart » Fri Apr 27, 2007 6:09 pm

CAR 421.66 3c

Where a flight instructor rating has been invalid for more than 24 months, an applicant for renewal shall:

(i) provide a recommendation from the holder of a Class 1 Flight Instructor Rating in the appropriate category indicating that the applicant is considered competent to complete the written examination(s) and undertake an instructor flight test;

(ii) successfully complete the examination requirement set forth under Knowledge for the appropriate flight instructor rating; and

(iii) successfully complete a flight test for the appropriate flight instructor rating.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regse ... htm#421_66
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Post by just curious » Fri Apr 27, 2007 6:23 pm

Thanks for the replies. I am at a spot where upload time is measured in weeks not seconds, so couldn't check the CARS.

Figured the plaque might have been a stretch!
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Post by Aeros » Fri Apr 27, 2007 7:34 pm

mcrit wrote:Regs say that you renew as whatever you expired as. So, worst case you renew as a 2.
I have run across similar situation in the past with other folks that have long since been expired. Some of these guys had ancient Class II ratings, others had OLD Class III ratings (back in the days of the old, three-class system).

The take from all of the inspectors was that they would renew, into the current system, based on the privileges of the old rating. In that case, they would have renewed you to a Class I since that one is the one that matched the privileges that you had back in the 80s.
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Post by Hedley » Sat Apr 28, 2007 4:31 am

First, you need to write the class 1/2 instructor written test (AIRAT).

Hopefully you will get well in excess of 80% on it, because that is the mark required for a current class 1 (class 2 needs 70%).

Main thing for you is that the PLH is gone. You need to print off CARs 401/421, 405/425, 406/426 and be familiar with them, and be able to find stuff quickly in them, and memorize some very basic stuff like experience requirements for private, night and commercial.

I might also suggest printing off CARs 602 and 605, as well as the applicable flight test guides. Get familiar with the test items and the allowable limits.

Then it's back to the FIG. It hasn't changed much. Application of learning factors (guaranteed to be on the AIRAT). Also, a new FTM - all flight training in Canada must be conducted IAW the FTM. PTR format has changed slightly since 1986.

If you need a recommend for the AIRAT, let me know. There is some odd stuff on it, like prop efficiency and illusions during approach due to rain on the windshield, upslope/downslope etc.

Next, onto the flight test.

Transport is big on relevant experience. If you have documentable experience of training instructor candidates, recommending them, etc then you have a good shot at getting a class 1 instructor rating.

Worst they can do is tell you to do a class 2 ride (I will recommend) and then immediately book and do a class 1 ride (I will recommend) with the same guy. If the guy figures you have a clue, he will might relent (after checking with his boss) and just do a one class 1 flight test and save himself some work.

Your company IFR training is excellent, but is slightly orthogonal to conducting instructor training, which is what a class 1 is all about.
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Post by More Hawker Than Sidley » Sat May 05, 2007 8:15 pm

Just Curious...I agree with most of Hedley and other comments. The additional info would be that you have to be in possession of a current Class 2 Instructor Rating before you can get a Class 1. Also, be sure to study/work on Instructor Supervision as TC always tests you on it on the Class 2 Instructor ride....this is because as a Class 2 you would be eligible for a CFI position in a school that also has other Instructors..especially Class 4's who by TC law require Supervision. Hope this helps a bit more. mhts.
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Post by Wasn't Me » Sun May 06, 2007 9:59 am

I did that awhile ago.

If it's been more than 2 years Write the exam for calss 2/1, get your class 2 renewded and book for your class one

you will need a class one to recommend you for the written (if more than 2 years) and first flight test (if more than a year).

Once you have a class two just prepsre for the class one hopefully you got 80 % on the written and go for the flight test.

You do not have to start at a class 4 or 3 level but you have to perform at a class 2 level on the flight test or the examiner will issue a class 3 or 4 or fail you completely.

Any questions PM Me

For the record I renewed a class one after not having a rating for about 12 years flight test started at 9:00 am and finished after 5:00 pm.
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Last edited by Wasn't Me on Sun May 06, 2007 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Cat Driver » Sun May 06, 2007 10:27 am

For the record I renewed a class one after not having a rating for about 12 years flight test started at 9:00 am and finished after 5:00 pm.
Is that normal?

I have never had a test take that long, what did the inspector have you do, relate every thing that has been learned about flying since the Wright brothers?
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Post by Doc » Sun May 06, 2007 10:57 am

I'm just trying to picture you strapping on a 150, and heading off into the wild blue.....ROTFLMFAO!!!
On a real note. Your students will be very lucky puppies, and will reap the benefits of your many years of aviation wisdom! More guys with backgrounds like yours should teach!
Enjoy.
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Post by Doc » Sun May 06, 2007 10:59 am

Cat....I know "Wasn't Me"....the poor inspector probably had to completely retrain him!
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Post by Wasn't Me » Sun May 06, 2007 11:16 am

What DOC said, maybe I talk to much, the ride was a good briefing and I enjoyed craking a few jokes. It was long but a good experience. At no time did I feel I was failing in any way. The air time was only 1.3 fight time.

DOC I straped on a C172 for that ride. I do not fit with an inspector in a C150.
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Post by Doc » Sun May 06, 2007 12:13 pm

I find 150's are shrinking...could this be?
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Post by just curious » Sun May 06, 2007 12:22 pm

It's what happens when you wash'em in hot water.
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Re: Renewing a REALLY expired Class II

Post by just curious » Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:11 pm

Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but several if you were kind enough to reply to my question, and merit some feedback.

I haven't renewed my rating. Yet. As it turns out, work has been busy. That having been said, I decided I wanted a project for my 25 thousandth hour. The might Otter isn't much on aerobatics (at least the survivable kind), and using: fly around the world/ North Pole/ South Pole/ land on Mount Logan has already been done (by me). Instead I wanted a project to bring me back to my roots. Who knew?

Anyway, I will be commencing my review of the CARs, instructional technique, supervisory role, and of course the basic private-commercial-instrument, night and instructor ratings. When I'm done, I'll be calling for more help.

Thanks for all the previous,

JC
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Re: Renewing a REALLY expired Class II

Post by Hedley » Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:24 pm

Hey JC. Let me know if you need a recommend for
the written test, or the flight test.
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Re: Renewing a REALLY expired Class II

Post by just curious » Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:22 pm

Thanks.
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Re: Renewing a REALLY expired Class II

Post by just curious » Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:43 pm

Having commence my review, and discovering that the C172 Widebody hasn't changed much, I now have a new question- I was instructing when the 286 desktops were just coming out, but not out to the Maritimes. I presume that instructors are adapting to technology. I was at the end using Overhead projections and thinking I was really cutting edge.

Are instructtrs using Ipods, YouTube and Powerpoint for Preparatory Ground Instruction these days, or is the stick in the dust, chalk blackboard still the only game in town? C'mon now, stop laughing, I'm serious!
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Re: Renewing a REALLY expired Class II

Post by BibleMonkey » Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:45 pm

Lap top computer running powerpoint on a large screen is common, I'd guess -with a chalk board/chalk back up, for when the batteries in the remote changing screens goes dead ( or other computer problem).

Then switch to chalk and blackboard, or colored felt pens and one of those big white boards that you write on with different coloured felt pens. There is nothing wrong with handwriting stuff on a board to transmit info, in my opinion. It was good enough for Einstein... :D

If you want to test fire/practice with a free clone of the Microsoft Word/Excell/Powerpoint software, on the pc you're making posts on, ( I'm just assuming you don't have Microsoft Office ) download Open Office here:
http://download.openoffice.org/

http://www.openoffice.org/product/


http://www.openoffice.org/product/impress.html


Open Office Tutorial

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8a3Ku4MCHHg

Just throwing this program out there for the computer shy that haven't tried Microsoft Office, and may want to test fire a freebie 'almost as good'...
I am definitely not a Flight Instructor-just a sunday afternoon, blue sky pilot, so anyone that actually teaches flying, please feel free to jump in and correct me.
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