Quality Multi IFR Instruction

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Blueskies
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Quality Multi IFR Instruction

Post by Blueskies »

This is a new thread to allow instructors who feel they can do a good job with a student an opportunity to present themselves.

A great thread was started - "Instructors and Schools"- and I think that some valid points have been made but there are some "conditioned responses" apparent even in some of the arguments presented:

1. *Does a Class 1 instructor necessarily provide better instruction than a
Class 4?

The reason I ask this is simple. I have a student that I am currently helping to finish up his Group 1 Initial and he came to me with some training that was done at another flight school. This student believed that he had received sufficient training towards a single engine IFR and even had a letter of recommendation for flight test (expired). The student was never aware that IFR rides incorporate simulated engine failures, even on multi-ifr rides.

What about a part-time instructor with actual IMC experience in 2-crew on piston and turbines but who holds a Class 4 Rating? That's me :wink: Does that mean that I am the last person a student should approach for quality training?

2. *In most cases, a few simple questions should tell any reasonable individual about the instructor they are speaking to. What kind of flying have they done? How many ratings have passed? How many ratings have FAILED?!! It amazes me how many times a student gets sent for a flight test when the instructor knows the student will fail. I've heard it so many times: "when he fails, he'll realise he needs another 10 hrs in the plane with me" WHAT IS THAT??!!!

I work at a flight school where all of the instructors have the option to teach multi-ifr after a review with a senior instructor. This is one way to ensure that quality instruction is delivered. However, keep in mind, some of the "senior" instructors at my school have never flown in the conditions I have acquired the actual experience in varying environments either.

There are lots of good instructors out there. Don't go straight to the Class 1 because he/she is a class 1. I know a Class 1 with over 3000 hrs TT and only 50 hrs multi. This individual was even a CFI of a large school. Are they the best person?

If you need a multi-ifr instructor in the Toronto area. PM me and I'll help you find one if I can't do it for you myself. At the end of the day, if you need a good instructor......ask some questions first. If you don't like who you pick, change instructors. It's your money and no one else should tell you who to spend it on.

You be the judge.:)
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Switchfoot
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Post by Switchfoot »

Blueskies:

You bring up some valid points and I agree with you completely. Just because an individual holds a Class II or Class I instructor rating, does not mean that they are necessarily the best instructor to teach you a particular rating or license.

It truly is up to the prospective student to ask as many questions as possible and then make an informed decision on which school to fly with and which instructor to use for the training.

My initial IFR training was completed with a Class III instructor and he was a very competent instructor. He was willing to take me into IMC and the aircraft was equipped and thus provided me with some first hand experience (while limited) in cloud. The individual who trained me for my inital Class IV instructor rating was a corporate pilot who had a wealth of knowledge as well as being a Class I instructor too. I am very grateful for those opportunities.

Currently, I am a Class II instructor and have a valid MIFR rating. I am employed in a 702/703 operation. But if someone came to me and asked me to teach a MIFR rating, if I were being honest, I'd have to say that I might not do the best job training that person compared to someone like yourself who has more acutal experience. And that is being very honest (most people would not say that).

Honesty is a good policy when talking to students and clients alike (for obvious reasons), and ultimately it will come down to an individuals personal decsion with where to, and with whom, to spend their money.

Good post. Keep 'em coming, and good luck to you!


:)
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Tango01
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Post by Tango01 »

Your points are valid and do make sense. However, for the most part, we all know that Class 4's don't have much experience teaching. No matter how much MIFR time you got, it will be useless if you can't TEACH IT RIGHT. Advanced ratings like the Group 1 require specialized techniques that most new instructors don't have yet. Also, class 4's can't freelance. Freelancing is the absolute best and most economical way to train after the PPL, and that's were a lot of Class 1 and 2's are.


T01
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sakism
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Post by sakism »

I have to disagree with you Tango01. The instrument rating is the easiest rating to teach - if the IFR procedures are all that has to be taught. The person already knows how to fly the plane, all that has to be taught in the airplane (more or less) is holds and approaches.

2 things. And those have (usually) been covered extensively on the ground.

IMOH the class of instructor shouldn't matter, but as Blueskies said - real IFR experience definitely makes for a better IFR instructor.
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Post by cedarjet »

sakism wrote: real IFR experience definitely makes for a better IFR instructor.
microsoft flight simulator doesn't count for real IFR experience.
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Blueskies
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Post by Blueskies »

So far it sounds like we're all on the same page. Sakism...I'm with you on this one. Microsoft flight sim or any other flight sim.....is there really a difference?

Just because I'm a class IV doesn't mean that I don't have any instructing experience. I have over 1000 hrs instructing, I have passed 2 successful private flight tests, 7 multi engine ratings, 5 IFRs, 51 float ratings, 19 night ratings and .....NO FAILURES!

Is that still too low because I'm a Class IV??
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mcrit
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Post by mcrit »

Knowing how to do something and knowing how to teach it are two different things. I've met plenty of people with lots of actual IFR who were great IFR pilots, but couldn't teach it to save their lives. The instrument rating is not that easy to teach effectively. You need to instill a lot of decision making skills and judgement into the student. It's not just procedures.
An effective IFR instructor has a lot of experience with IFR and alot of experience with instructing. Yes, you want to avoid the guy with a class one instructor rating and 50 hours multi, but you also want to avoid the guy with 1000 hrs actual and no instructing experience.
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Post by Nordo »

I dont want to offend because I know there are alot of Instructors in this forum, but you dont learn how to teach, it isnt something that comes with class 4,3,2,1. A shitty class 4 will be a shitty class 1 instructor. Teaching is a natural instinct. 3% of the instructors out there are natural teachers, maybe even less. A teacher with the 'gift' and little experience with IFR is always better than the guy who has lots of IFR experience and no teaching skills because the instructor who has the ability to teach a student to learn will give more to the student that the guy who can only show the student what he knows.

Go for the best instructor, not the guy with the most IFR experience. Unfortunatly somtimes neither is possible.
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Blueskies
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Post by Blueskies »

Nordo, very well said. I'm amazed at how little response I'm getting to this thread. And here I thought that most of the individuals that post on some of these threads were just always trying to stir up a big sh*tstorm. :twisted:
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northpilot54
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Post by northpilot54 »

First of all let me say that I don't agree with some of the schools who give an instructor (class IV or III) a new student (First solo) who finishes up his private and/or commercial with him/her and then must give up that student to an "upper" class instructor to do his/her multi/single ifr. That original instructor has all the right to help that student on his way to success. That instructor who has been with the original student the whole way knows his/hers strengths and weakness of the student. If the original instructor does not feel that they are up to the challenge of helping the student pilot, then it is there responsibility to let the student go with another experienced instructor. I have been thru the ranks…and the student will feel comfortable dealing with someone that has been there for them. Not just a person who dictates everything…someone who cares…I’m sorry when you get a new student who has 150 hours (and thinks they can handle everything…we all did at that point at our aviation career) most of the time it is the original instructor is the only one who can knock some sense in to them and give them confidence. Getting your IfR does not mean that you can just go and shoot approaches up north/east/south/west it gives you a base to learn on. It is up to your fellow pilots to fine tune everything when you get into the crap. For all you starting out don’t ever think you know it all, listen to the people training you, they are here to help you and to keep you alive!!!
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Post by Right Seat Captain »

northpilot54 wrote:First of all let me say that I don't agree with some of the schools who give an instructor (class IV or III) a new student (First solo) who finishes up his private and/or commercial with him/her and then must give up that student to an "upper" class instructor to do his/her multi/single ifr. That original instructor has all the right to help that student on his way to success. That instructor who has been with the original student the whole way knows his/hers strengths and weakness of the student. If the original instructor does not feel that they are up to the challenge of helping the student pilot, then it is there responsibility to let the student go with another experienced instructor. I have been thru the ranks…and the student will feel comfortable dealing with someone that has been there for them. Not just a person who dictates everything…someone who cares…I’m sorry when you get a new student who has 150 hours (and thinks they can handle everything…we all did at that point at our aviation career) most of the time it is the original instructor is the only one who can knock some sense in to them and give them confidence. Getting your IfR does not mean that you can just go and shoot approaches up north/east/south/west it gives you a base to learn on. It is up to your fellow pilots to fine tune everything when you get into the crap. For all you starting out don’t ever think you know it all, listen to the people training you, they are here to help you and to keep you alive!!!
I'm sorry, it should absolutely be up to the student. They are paying for the service, they get to choose.
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Post by hz2p »

You can only teach what you know.

A class 1 who has never flown tailwheel, floats, aerobatic, multi-engine or IFR is probably not your first choice for learning tailwheel, floats, aerobatic, multi-engine or IFR (duh).

All you really know about a class 1 is that they've probably gone around the circuit a thousand times, and you'd hope that they'd know how to teach someone to land a nosewheel aircraft.

Teaching IFR is two entirely different tasks:

1) teaching to pass the test, and
2) teaching to survive in the real world.

The two have very little to do with each other. For example, to pass the test, over and over again you have to practice how to precisely enter a hold, using just the right procedure. In the real world, you're hardly ever going to see a hold, and if you do, ATC couldn't care less how beautifully crafted your racetrack is, as long as you hold your altitude.

I'd be very surprised if the subjects of icing or thunderstorms or dewpoint spread even came up on your IFR flight test, but in the real world, that's what's going to kill you if you don't become expert at dealing with them.

Probably the biggest thing about teaching IFR is that people have to realize that it's not about chasing needles. It's about visualization. Since an IFR pilot can't look out the window to see the picture, he's got to be able to have one in his head.

At any point, an IFR pilot should be able to sketch a picture of where the aircraft is, where the airport is, where the localizer is, where the wind is coming from (eg on approach). An IFR pilot without a mental picture of what's going on is an accident waiting to happen. This skill is of course not even mentioned by Transport and is usually very poorly taught to beginners who don't have a clue, and just chase needles. No wonder that GPS moving maps are so popular.
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Post by hz2p »

One more thing ... multi-IFR is a stupid way to learn IFR, imho. IFR is complicated enough that having some wanker in the right seat pulling throttles will probably overload you, at first.

Ideally, people would get their group 3 (single-engine ) instrument rating in something dumb and simple like a 172, then once they got the hang of the IFR crap, then toss in the constant speed prop, cowl flaps, landing gear, asymmetric engine failures, janitrol heaters, blah blah blah.

Group 1 (multi-engine) IFR isn't really hard, it's just a lot of new stuff at once, which is a stupid way to teach somebody something. After all, do we all learn to fly by learning to land on a pitching and heaving aircraft carrier, at night and poor wx? Of course not.

Someone mentioned that students shouldn't switch instructors as they work their way through the ratings, which I think is very poor advice. After a student has gone solo (and has learned one way to fly a circuit and land) he should fly with as many different instructors as he can. Each one will teach you something different, and that knowledge is like money in the bank down the road.

Baby ducks bind to their mothers. Pilots are not baby ducks, and should strive not to emulate them.
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northpilot54
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Post by northpilot54 »

I must agree forgot to mention it Right Seat Capitain,... It is always the students choice....some schools however don't give the student a choice and therefore the student suffers...The student always comes first...just as long as the instuctor gives him all the facts of his/her abilities and other choices out there
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Post by Right Seat Captain »

northpilot54 wrote:some schools however don't give the student a choice and therefore the student suffers...
If the student is smart, or frequents AvCanada, then the school will suffer a loss of a student.
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Post by joebloggs »

I do agree with RCC, when I first started, I found that many students were intimidated by their instructor and were reluctant to 'fire' him/her and go with another instructor at the same school. This also looked bad for the instructor. I was lucky, in my mind I had the best instructor the school had. This was an instructor with no real IFR experience at the time but he was a natural teacher. IFR is just procedures. I now have a lot of IFR time as people on this thread state but when it came time to train people in the company ie. right seat people who's last 'IFR' fight was in flight school. You can really see the difference in the teaching. All that aside, I just didn't have the patience to impart the knowledge that I had gained over the years. I would not make a good instructor and that is something I believe cannot be tought. So I think that if the person is a very good instructor, students will enjoy flying with this person, which makes the learning process easier, no matter what the instructor is teaching, be it forced landings, soft field take offs or IFR.
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Post by Cat Driver »

"This was an instructor with no real IFR experience at the time but he was a natural teacher. IFR is just procedures. "

Wow Joe, this one is a keeper for having it all wrong....

..so in your mind all you need is a good instructor, the fact that said instructor does not understand the subject is not revelant?..

... If you relly believe that IFR is "Just procedures " send me your picture so we have something to remember you by when you are gone.

Cat
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Post by Wasn't Me »

Good luck to all those students who think a Pilot with 250 hours a class IV and an instrumnet rating can teach anything but attitudes a movements. Being able to pass an IFR flight test and being able to fly to 200 and a 1/2 are two seperate things. In the last year I have trained about 10 Pilots for PPC's and the big problem was getting them to understand what they were doing IFR. It got so bad that now I avoid instructors and look for experienced IFR pilots instead. If you haven't done the walk how can you teach the talk.
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"IFR trauning is the easiest ratting to teach " Wr

Post by PHD »

Just got one comment to make peeps, and it aint to repeat alot of what was said but to clairfy something that others may read and get the wrong idea, about IFR instruction.....................


IFR is not the easiest ratting to teach and no its not about teaching holds and approaches for guys that already hold a ppl or cpl or whatever the case may be.....

If you had lots of teaching experince and lots of IFR experince combine the two and that will answer or correct your comment....

If you think that you got it easy teaching IFR to pilots that already know how to fly VFR, you are dead wrong.............. and you are going to cause someone one day that you have tought to be a statistic on NSTB.......

IFR is the most complex ratting to teach not becuase you are teaching holds and approaches.......

For the first time you are pushing students to their limits on their situational awarness and multi tasking, weather its Single IFR or Multi IFR..

Lets put it that way.......
for someone thats learning how to walk,
you are teaching them to walk, talk, chew and skip all at once.....
think about.........

So my conclusion is that i agree with the very very first post on this subject....

Anyhow that was my two sence for the day

Fly safe, and teach it right,

cheers
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