My Aviation Goals

[CanadianEh]

Hi all,
This is my first post. I've been checking out the forum as a guest for a few weeks and I'm finally ready to post about myself. I'm just finishing up High School and I've already applied to Sault and Seneca as well as the Commercial Airline Management program at the University of Western Ontario and Geography and Aviation program at U Waterloo. From reading the posts around here, I can see that there are a variety of opinions in terms of University education. Please share what you think.

My number one choice is Western because I really want to learn about the business side of aviation and have a degree in case things go sour. My career goals aren't extremely ambitious, I just want to fly. Whether it be regional, corporate, bush, medevac or major, I really don't care. After I finish my program I think I would enjoy instructing or bush flying, but most likely instructing because I don't think I'm cut out for the ramp. I've known since I was young that I've wanted to become a pilot and its finally time for me to start. I just want to have fun and enjoy my career while also earning what I deserve. I would like to hear from pilots about their experiences in aviation and what they like/didn't like about the choices they made and any regrets they may have.

Thanks!
CanadianEh

[MichaelP]

I had a chap in here the other day who had just finished his PPL and also an engineering degree.
He was wondering about instructor training... Should he become a full time instructor?
He does not want to be an airline pilot.

If a Class 4 instructor makes $15,000 in his/her first year here on the wet coast he/she is doing well!
So I suggested this chap get the engineering job with a starting wage of $45,000 a year or thereabouts, have the money to spend on doing the CPL and Instructor rating part time, and then have the fun of instructing on the weekends.
When he finally gets fed up with engineering and is ready to take the financial plunge to be a full time instructor, at least he will have gained some experience in his profession.

If he became an instructor now, and left engineering until he gets fed up with his lot in life as a poor instructor, then he would be going into engineering with no experience and a stale degree.

It's a funny thing, how I talk sense to people... Of course I never followed such sense in my own life.
I tried, I really tried, with the regular job at British Aerospace providing the funds for me to fly a lot of interesting aeroplanes every weekend and to zoom off into Europe for a self fly holiday in the summer.
So here I am... at an age where many of life's 'to dos' are time expired.
But life is a learning experience and I do not regret the things I have done to bring me to this position now.
Indeed as an instructor I have a lot of real experiences to draw on to illustrate the points I make.

Follow your heart, and don't be afraid to change your mind.
Like any serious commitment, a career in aviation has its hardships and its rewards.
Someone else's rewards might not be your own.

[mattedfred]

i regret not getting a trade and doing my CPL and float endorsement at the same time. if i had done so then i could have completed my CPL sooner than i had and would have had a trade to supplement low wages from flying. having a trade would also get me through a layoff for the winter if it happened which would also allow me time to get my MEIFR.

if you want to be a manager then go to university

if you want to fly for AC then go to university or an aviation college

if you don't care about any of the above then get a trade

[CanadianEh]

Thanks MichaelP and mattedfred for your insight. I never really thought about having aviation as a second career, as you suggested MichaelP, I'll have to keep that in mind too.

[iflyforpie]

You could also have it as a first and second career. I started out as an AME and then went Commercial pilot. As a result I've got an aviation career if I can't find any flying or loose my medical and I've never had to 'live' on a low-time pilot's wages. Right now I am quite happy doing both.

[767]

Hi all,
After I finish my program I think I would enjoy instructing , but most likely instructing because I don't think I'm cut out for the ramp.

If thats the case, do your flight training at the flight school you want to instruct at. Although you most likely will get an instructor job somewhere, you need to realize that getting that first job is not easy. If you do your flight training at the flight school you want to work at, treat your flight training as if its a job interview. Impressing the CFI is the key to getting that job (the easy way).

I hope you have a successful career with whatever you chose, wish you good luck!

[dt1019]

I was making the same decisions about this time last year and in the end, I chose Science and Aviation at Waterloo. I actually wanted to go to western and I even accepted their offer but I changed my mind in the end. Doing a university aviation program costs a lot of money and the flight training component isn't subsidized by the government like the Seneca/Sault/Confederation programs. The good things about university aviation programs is that you get a degree and your licenses by the end of 4 years. Now many people might be thinking "It would be better if I can go to university for something non-aviation related and do flight training on the side at my own pace". I agree that perhaps it would be more practical to get a degree in something outside of aviation as a back-up and do flight training on the side, but this is only good if it all works out in the end. I think it takes a lot of dedication to focus on university studies in a field totally irrelevant to aviation when you know that you're aiming for a career in aviation AND at the same time get your flight training done outside of university. So I guess Waterloo or Western's programs are good if you want to integrate flight training into your university studies because you'll be forced to meet the requirements of your degree and also keep up with the flying.

At Western, flying starts in second year I believe and at Waterloo, flying starts in term 2 of first year. I think the flight training with Western's program is slightly more expensive but other than that, I don't know enough about it to comment further. As for the Waterloo program, feel free to PM me if you want more info about it.

I do want to say that the Waterloo programs aren't really like the "Aviation degrees" that you see in the US and I wouldn't think of it as an "all aviation" program. It's actually more like a double major program. Many of the courses you take at Waterloo will not have direct relation to aviation. For example, if you're in Science and Aviation and specializing in Physics, you're basically taking the same courses as the Physics majors EXCEPT you have the flight training component to your program and you get to take only 4 Waterloo courses instead of 5 to accomodate for ground school, preparatory ground instruction and flying. The same goes for the students specializing in Earth Sciences within Aviation and even the Geography and Aviation students. They take what the Earth Sciences/Geography students take, with flight training added to that. There are some mandatory courses common to all aviation students though (courses like cartography, remote sensing, air photo interpretation, etc). So the good thing about this is that your degree and skills from the program will not be totally useless if your flying career ends. You'll hopefully have the same job opportunities as the Geography/Science grads.

[CanadianEh]

I was making the same decisions about this time last year and in the end, I chose Science and Aviation at Waterloo. I actually wanted to go to western and I even accepted their offer but I changed my mind in the end. Doing a university aviation program costs a lot of money and the flight training component isn't subsidized by the government like the Seneca/Sault/Confederation programs. The good things about university aviation programs is that you get a degree and your licenses by the end of 4 years. Now many people might be thinking "It would be better if I can go to university for something non-aviation related and do flight training on the side at my own pace". I agree that perhaps it would be more practical to get a degree in something outside of aviation as a back-up and do flight training on the side, but this is only good if it all works out in the end. I think it takes a lot of dedication to focus on university studies in a field totally irrelevant to aviation when you know that you're aiming for a career in aviation AND at the same time get your flight training done outside of university. So I guess Waterloo or Western's programs are good if you want to integrate flight training into your university studies because you'll be forced to meet the requirements of your degree and also keep up with the flying.

At Western, flying starts in second year I believe and at Waterloo, flying starts in term 2 of first year. I think the flight training with Western's program is slightly more expensive but other than that, I don't know enough about it to comment further. As for the Waterloo program, feel free to PM me if you want more info about it.

I do want to say that the Waterloo programs aren't really like the "Aviation degrees" that you see in the US and I wouldn't think of it as an "all aviation" program. It's actually more like a double major program. Many of the courses you take at Waterloo will not have direct relation to aviation. For example, if you're in Science and Aviation and specializing in Physics, you're basically taking the same courses as the Physics majors EXCEPT you have the flight training component to your program and you get to take only 4 Waterloo courses instead of 5 to accomodate for ground school, preparatory ground instruction and flying. The same goes for the students specializing in Earth Sciences within Aviation and even the Geography and Aviation students. They take what the Earth Sciences/Geography students take, with flight training added to that. There are some mandatory courses common to all aviation students though (courses like cartography, remote sensing, air photo interpretation, etc). So the good thing about this is that your degree and skills from the program will not be totally useless if your flying career ends. You'll hopefully have the same job opportunities as the Geography/Science grads.

Thanks a lot for your insight. It's going to be a tough decision. I have actually already been accepted into the Waterloo Geography and Aviation, but not yet Western.

[square]

Have you tried flying yet?

[CanadianEh]

Have you tried flying yet?

Yeah, I took a fam flight and had a turn at the controls. The aviation bug has been planted.

[dt1019]

Don't worry too much if you haven't received Western's acceptance. My marks were just a few percent over their "80% requirement" and I found out last year at around late April I think. Good luck!

[CanadianEh]

Don't worry too much if you haven't received Western's acceptance. My marks were just a few percent over their "80% requirement" and I found out last year at around late April I think. Good luck!

Thanks for the info man.

[brokenwing]

If a Class 4 instructor makes $15,000 in his/her first year here on the wet coast he/she is doing well!

Are you not a Class 1 instructor running a flight school on the "wet" coast?. You must have the power and ability to change that, no? That is absolutely appalling.

[square]

Yeah... You better be working around their Burger King schedule or you should be charged with something..

[Blue Side Down]

If you're dead set on getting a flying 'degree', try this... ethical it may not be, but I'll throw it out there for humor-

Assuming that by proper foresight on the part of your parentals, and you now have full financial backing...

Establish with them that you're set on having your degree and pilots license at the end of four years. The financial costs will be established firm- ask for it up front . But now, instead of enrolling in the 'flight training' section at school, enroll in the standard biz management or what not. Now, with the $40,000 you've got kicking around because school is now that much cheaper, walk down to your local ReMax office, find a decent house close to campus, walk over to the bank, secure a mortgage with half of what you have left and rent out every spare bed you have in your new home. Now take the 20g that's left over, and in the six weeks preceding the first day of first semester of first year, head down to the local mom and pop club and bang off your private license and night rating. By this time you'll have 10g left over. Put a couple grand down for block time to build a little experience, and then when you're comfy with the idea that you're not a terror in the sky anymore, pitch the idea of 'airplane rides' to your buddies. They cover half the cost of the plane, you let them hold the yoke for a bit and wear aviators. By December first year, you'll have 75 hours and be a year and a half ahead of everyone in the first year flight class. So now, you've still got 7g's in your 'burn on flying' account... save that till the summer, where, while working a half decent job, you can go get a float rating, multi-IFR, or check out and fly a dozen hours on tailwheel. This first summer will be key for making connections too- the more you make, the more likely you are to find someone who will let you fly their plane at nominal cost. If you can find a gliding club, you're golden.
So now you're at the start of second year, with one year of a real education under your belt, and 100 hours of flying time. Keep on keeping on... fly as often as you can at a reasonable rate. By the end of the year, you should make it to within spitting distance of 150 hours flight time. You might have to ease off partying with the flight class kids around now too, for your own safety. Here comes another summer of more of the same, work a decent job, and spend what you can afford on flying. By the end of the summer, you should be close to 200 hours and will complete your commercial exam and flight test. Welcome to the club, oh right, and while you're just starting third year. From here on out it's a matter of personal luck. You might find a decent job flying skydivers on weekends, or a 152 for an aerial photo op- either will have you motoring along to that first milestone of 500 hours, which you could reasonably expect to hit sometime around the tail end of fourth year if you've lucked out and fallen bassackwards into a real flying job in the summer between year 3 and 4.
And finally, you've graduated with a bach' in bidsness, 500 hours total time, and you own 10% more of your house, at no cost to you. You have the option to go fly for money if you so desire, but along the way you've learned that the real money is in management and you'll buy your own damned plane in six months anyhow. Because you're sick of your uni town by now, you sell your house and buy your parents a new home entertainment system and third car with what's left over as a thank you gesture. When you look around at your grad ceremony, you realize that you've achieved your two primary goals set four years ago; you've became familiar with the workings of real estate; you have twice as much flying time as your peers, and had a hell of a good time along the way. Not a bad deal, if you can convince the parentals to cash your RESP up front...

[CanadianEh]

If you're dead set on getting a flying 'degree', try this... ethical it may not be, but I'll throw it out there for humor-

Assuming that by proper foresight on the part of your parentals, and you now have full financial backing...

Establish with them that you're set on having your degree and pilots license at the end of four years. The financial costs will be established firm- ask for it up front . But now, instead of enrolling in the 'flight training' section at school, enroll in the standard biz management or what not. Now, with the $40,000 you've got kicking around because school is now that much cheaper, walk down to your local ReMax office, find a decent house close to campus, walk over to the bank, secure a mortgage with half of what you have left and rent out every spare bed you have in your new home. Now take the 20g that's left over, and in the six weeks preceding the first day of first semester of first year, head down to the local mom and pop club and bang off your private license and night rating. By this time you'll have 10g left over. Put a couple grand down for block time to build a little experience, and then when you're comfy with the idea that you're not a terror in the sky anymore, pitch the idea of 'airplane rides' to your buddies. They cover half the cost of the plane, you let them hold the yoke for a bit and wear aviators. By December first year, you'll have 75 hours and be a year and a half ahead of everyone in the first year flight class. So now, you've still got 7g's in your 'burn on flying' account... save that till the summer, where, while working a half decent job, you can go get a float rating, multi-IFR, or check out and fly a dozen hours on tailwheel. This first summer will be key for making connections too- the more you make, the more likely you are to find someone who will let you fly their plane at nominal cost. If you can find a gliding club, you're golden.
So now you're at the start of second year, with one year of a real education under your belt, and 100 hours of flying time. Keep on keeping on... fly as often as you can at a reasonable rate. By the end of the year, you should make it to within spitting distance of 150 hours flight time. You might have to ease off partying with the flight class kids around now too, for your own safety. Here comes another summer of more of the same, work a decent job, and spend what you can afford on flying. By the end of the summer, you should be close to 200 hours and will complete your commercial exam and flight test. Welcome to the club, oh right, and while you're just starting third year. From here on out it's a matter of personal luck. You might find a decent job flying skydivers on weekends, or a 152 for an aerial photo op- either will have you motoring along to that first milestone of 500 hours, which you could reasonably expect to hit sometime around the tail end of fourth year if you've lucked out and fallen bassackwards into a real flying job in the summer between year 3 and 4.
And finally, you've graduated with a bach' in bidsness, 500 hours total time, and you own 10% more of your house, at no cost to you. You have the option to go fly for money if you so desire, but along the way you've learned that the real money is in management and you'll buy your own damned plane in six months anyhow. Because you're sick of your uni town by now, you sell your house and buy your parents a new home entertainment system and third car with what's left over as a thank you gesture. When you look around at your grad ceremony, you realize that you've achieved your two primary goals set four years ago; you've became familiar with the workings of real estate; you have twice as much flying time as your peers, and had a hell of a good time along the way. Not a bad deal, if you can convince the parentals to cash your RESP up front...

My RESP and other investments took a pretty big hit, so it wouldn't be wise to cash it all in up front in Sept. I'm planning to use OSAP and then cash out my RESP later on to pay off the loans. Pretty good idea though.