Thinking about being a pilot. Need some advice

[avsk]

Hi everybody,

I'm so glad I stumbled on this webiste, it looks to be very useful for newbies like me, thanks for all the good work.

On to my story, I'm 25 and I'm in the University doing undergrad political science right now and I've always been one of those people that jumps around career paths looking to find the passion. The good part is, I think I really found mine in aviation, granted I never piloted an airplane before, but something about the view, the lifestyle (I did enough research to know its not what Hollywood and TV would have us believe) just appeals to me. That and for as long as I could remember, I always dreamed of flying.

I live in Windsor right now (for the uni) and I'd be very glad if someone could advice me on whether going to the Windsor Flying Club would be a good decision or whether moving to London/Toronto would be better/cheaper.

Also, I have a ton of student loan right now and as we all know, flying licenses don't come easy. I don't wanna take out another loan so I was thinking about waiting till graduation (saving up whatever I can in the mean time) and then working for another 6 months or so would save me enough money to pay for PPL at least.

How do all the flight students take care of their expenses, is there any way to find work within the school to support yourself? or do you just have to get the PPL, take a few months off and make enough money to get your CPL and then do the same for Instructor/Float and then finally make a living. (I'd be ok with that but it takes years to finish it this way and I'm already 25, I don't wanna be 40 by the time I start a career)

And thanks in advance guys and girls, I really appreciate the help.

[Tim]

if you think money is going to be an issue you might be in some trouble, a ppl will be around 10-15% of your total cost assuming you get a multi/ifr rating as well. i would suggest having more funds in line, other wise you may find yourself just paying for an expensive hobby. its a fun career, but theres a lot (a LOT) of downsides to it.

good luck

[avsk]

Thanks Tim, I was thinking, maybe if I work for a year after graduation, I could possibly save enough for PPL and CPL, and then once I get those, maybe I could start making enough money flying to pay for the rest of the licenses.

Also, is it possible to do your flight school part time in the weekends and evenings? If so how long do you guys think it'll take to finish it?

[hairdo]

Most flight schools offer courses that are available on the weekends and evenings, but you would have to check with the individual school. In the long run, it might be better if you save up your money and then try to do all of your training in one continuous shot, or at least continue to fly some while you are saving money up to continue to the next license. Some schools will have jobs that you can get to help pay the bills, but don't count on it being the norm. Try to do some work and save up as much as you can before you go. If you are going to go to a school, ask them how much it should cost and use that as a baseline (they will most likely tell you the best case [re. cheapest] scenario). If you save up a little more than what they say it should be, then you won't be left high and dry if you need the funds (and if you don't need them, then that's cash for something else). And don't forget to factor in living costs. The faster you get it done, the cheaper it will be.

My $0.02

[SuperchargedRS]

Now I am not a big fan of working the docks, HOWEVER you seem like someone that should do that. Go put a summer in and see if you still want to fly. If you one of the A typical college types that jumps from one "career" to another you might want to think twice before getting into this.
If you cant eat sleep and breathe aviation, go fly a desk.

[pilotman15]

Try and get into a government subsidized college program. Your current loan will still be on hold (assuming its OSAP) as you will be returning to school and all that it costs you is normal college tuition, with all the flying being free (yes thats right, FREE ). Confederation, Sault, and Seneca are the only three government subsidized colleges in Ontario. Look into it.

[Tim]

i did the sault college program, its not great for people that already degrees. especially since you dont fly for the first year.

the money part is great though

you're gonna be looking at a total cost of at least $50 000 for your cpl with multi/ifr at most places

[avsk]

Thanks for all the advice, I'll definitely look into the govt sponsored colleges and see if I meet their requirements.

And, in case that doesn't work out, does anyone here have any experience with Windsor Flying club? They only have RPL and PPL here, I have to go to another place for CPL anyway, which one is the cheapest (as far as flying clubs go)?

Edit: Tim, thats exactly why I was reluctant towards full time college programs to begin with, since I'll be going in with a degree already in place.

[deflux]

It took me 9 months to do my PPL flying 2 days a week, 2 hr booking each day. But we lost a ton of flights to bad weather.

If you go at it full time you could probably finish in 2 or 3 months.

[ZBBYLW]

If you are going to save up and do not mind moving, I know Harv's Air out of Winnipeg can get you done real quick. They have accommodations on site and you can finnish up rather quickly. I saw on their website they claim that they have 330 flyable days a year, meaning you wont be sitting on the ground paying for living expenses not working on your license, which is obviously important.

[baby_fly]

One piece of advice: Before you commit yourself to the idea of flying for living, go out and get an aviation medical exam done. You'll need one regardless, and it's better to know sooner rather than later whether you have a medical issues that could affect your ability to fly.

[tzu]

DONT DO IT! Save your soul before you lose EVERYTHING for this shitty industry.

Pick something a little more stable, credible, and that which will pay more and offer you more respect -

something like a professional Poop & Scooper.

[canpilot]

Tzu.. amen

I suggest you look at the employment forum.. in particular the low timers looking for work thread and the flying over gross.. also look at Sonic Blue posts, Mark Tayfel, Keystone, Regency, Skydive toronto.. to name a few.. Little gems.. You might just want to stick to that PPL. This being said, if you choose to do your training to the CPL level get er done asap.. you want to be ready to get that ramp ASAP to get into a plane when the industry picks up in a few years... When the industry does pick up..you might get 18-24 months of " boom" before she goes bust again..so think about where you end up.

Get a really good hard look at what you are getting yourself into before spending a shitload on a lousy career where you will may lose everything.. with NO returns.. What I am saying and others are saying is the TRUTH.. flight schools won't tell you this...as they want your money. You are entering the asshole of the career world..!! BEWARE!

Also make sure you don't get soaked by your instructor during this recession .. they will want to eat..and with limited students showing up at the doors of FTU's ..that PPL might take take 100 + hours instead of that average 65. If I were you I would save or whatever and make a goal to complete the training in a given time period.. don't let your training get dragged out.. the cost will add up..in ways you would never imagine.

All this being said..

Good luck!

[SkyWolfe]

Having the above said.

Get a good career and fly for fun! Buy your own plane and enjoy

[avsk]

Ok now I'm scared.

Please answer this, apart from the entry level struggles, once you land a job (as a bush pilot/instructor even), is it that hard to make ends meet? I'm not a fancy cars, expensive suits kinda guy. So long as I make enough to pay off the loans and mortgages and save barely enough for the future, I'm a happy camper. Although, I have to make enough eventually to feed my future family and all, but thats like 5-8 years from now, do you guys seriously think that a pilot with 5-8 years under his belt won't make enough for his family?? (To put it in numbers, I don't need a 100,000 salary, I'm looking for somewhere around 20-30,000 to begin with and eventually end up at 60-75,000 at my peak)

I ask this because I'm good at a lot of things, I was always a top achiever wherever I went. I jumped career paths a million times now, I've jumped from software programming to finance to HR (and I was good at all of them) but nothing seems to really get that spark out of me. I think its because sitting at a desk 9-5 and then stressing about it 5-12 isn't exactly what I enjoy doing and it isn't what I'd hoped for.

And, I really appreciate the honesty from you guys and thanks for not sugar coating and being frank.

EDIT: I don't mind moving out west or even north (maybe not Nunavut, but Manitoba/Alberta etc), if that makes a difference.

[SkyWolfe]

Don't be scared. You can do anything if you want it bad enough. Just remember there is struggle for most, and many who just quit.

Well, all bush jobs will differ. Some will pay you 1000/month and expect you to live on it. You can be in a cabin with no electricity, or sleep in the hangar. You may also be lucky and get 3500/month and be able to afford rent in a local place or be provided suitable living.

The further west you go, the more you should expect to pay for the cost of living. North, is also not cheap - supply vs demand. Get used to room-mates

As an instructor, you may make between 15-25 K - Seems to be the normal average. You may go weeks in the winter without getting paid because you have no students and are not paid base. Also remember the amount of money you will put into your I-rating and the time needed to dedicate to your learning, class prep, program prep, and out of class help...

It is unlikely you will make enough to pay off your loans unless they are small. I had help, and still have 20K left. I had A LOT of help... Otherwise I would have 50K. Other pilots I know who are instructors had 80-100K left. Not everyone. Its all a seperate case for every single person. You need to be realistic about what you will make, if you will get a job, how much you have spent, and create a budget that includes your loan.

5-8 Years will likely be enough time, but nothing will be set in stone. Just work hard.

I have also been a top achiever. This industry has a lot of "who you know" - not "what you know"


Please feel free to ask anything. I am only one opinion out of many

Wolfie

[canpilot]

Your plan is somewhat do-able.

PLEASE factor in recessions..

Typically, aviation is the first to get smacked and the last to re-bound. Recessions will slow your progression and keep you down at the 20 K or lower level (See CMA/ Carson ). Also, if you upgrade.. move companies you will take a pay cut.. I suggest looking at the pay scale at WJ, AC, JAZZ. (if this is your end goal)

Also, factor in the fact that you may work seasonal jobs May- October and miss the hiring for non-aviation jobs in the fall. I got laid off in early October of this year ..by the time I came back there were almost no jobs left in Van.. this was partly due to the economic crisis..

Also factor in your company being closed, shut down .. layoffs etc.

It is do-able.. and its an awesome career on top.. or so I'm told.. I'm still trying to climb the ladder...

Also, decide what pilot you will be before getting into the industry.. Will be the one that works for free, pays for PPC's, goes flying when other companies do not (push weather), and goes flying over gross in aircraft that are KNOWINGLY not airworthy.?

if you are this kind of pilot ..please stay out.. we have enough of those...

However, if you want to be the guy that sticks up for the aviation industry and is the opposite of the above.. come join the insanity that is the industry! Bring some hard work, a camera and lots of patience.. welcome aboard!

ENJOY THE JOURNEY!!

[avsk]

Thanks canpilot and skywolfe.

And yes, I am making a plan right now as to what I need to do and of course the numbers. The more I crunch the numbers though, the closer I am getting to the conclusion that continuing my independent HR work (which will make me around 2 Gs a month) while I try to be a pilot would be good idea. And since it is independent work, my hours depend completely on me, (although it directly influences the amount of money I make).

Btw, Skywolfe, your avatar is probably one of the best, did you make it?

[North Shore]

Well, I'd think that most schools are pretty much the same; as I've posted before, the key part in the whole training equation is you, and how hard you are willing to work, do you ask intelligent questions etc... That being said, I'd think a spell in the basement at Chateau Parental after you graduate from Uni would be a good thing - generally cut-rate rent/food/laundry/transport etc, while you get sorted.

Financially, take a look at your debt load - a CPL M/IFR won't give you much change from $60k - can you, realistically, afford that? I'm a big fan of a pay-as-you-go plan, so finish the degree, get a job and then start chipping away at your licences. That kills 2 birds - financial, and your back-up plan (that is, if something goes sideways on you down the road (medical, company bankruptcy etc.. can you still pay your bills? It's a heckofa lot easier if you can do something else.) I said start chipping, unless you can afford the full-pull loan thing, in which case, get on it.

WRT salary questions, one of the many pieces of advice that my father has given me along the way is that it generally takes about 5 years to get good at something. I certainly found that in my career - in that it took me 5 years after my CPL to arrive at a decent company (pay, lifestyle etc.) So, plan on that, for starters. Next, I'd try and pick a company with one-stop shopping. Meaning, that if you want to go to WJ, say, then look at what they require, and then work backwards. If you can get on at a place that starts with a 172 (which you can fly) and then tops out with a 1900D, then as you progress through the ranks, you won't have to move all over the place. If that doesn't work, then if you go from job to job in the search for more/better/faster, make sure that the places you are going to you'll be comfortable in if things don't work out. You could get to the interview stage at JazzyAirWest, and simply blow it, or the sim. Tough pill to swallow, made even more so if you are living/working in a place that you don't want to be..
Sorry, that was a bit of a ramble..I don't think that $60k is out of line in a non-airline job with a few years of seniority. My non-airline job will finish me in the mid $80's (after ~ 10 years of service there, and 16 years after my CPL), with a pension and benefit plan, and I certainly don't feel hard-done by.

Good luck!

edit: durn spellin!

[avsk]

Thanks for all the advice, I have a tentative plan now. I think I'm going to start working towards saving at least enough to finish my PPL and CPL (most probably next summer) and depending on the situation, I can either go float or instructor from there.

All that aside, can you guys recommend me any books for now so I could read up and do all my homework before I officially start my classes? I got a year left at the least, why waste it.