Mount Royal College

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fly'n
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Re: Mount Royal College

Post by fly'n » Fri Oct 16, 2009 4:03 pm

As a current student, I tend to agree with the whole idea that the program is going down hill. I obviously don't know how it has been run in the past, though I am sure that it has been better than it is now, because there is no way it would have survived this long the way it has. The classroom portion of it is fine except for a few minor things that a few of us have noticed, but you will find that anywhere you go, the biggest problem with the way it is being run now is how flight operations has been handled. This year they have decided to schedule flight's themselves as a way of keeping everyone at around the same stage in their training, though this has been a horrible disaster. This has resulted in some students being at flight 10 of the syllabus already, while others have yet to complete their first flight. Also, with the way that they are handling scheduling, students have no say in when their flights are booked, you are expected to fill out a sheet at the beginning of the semester with the times of your classes and the times of the week you are not able to fly consistently throughout the semester, with no way to be able to schedule around any other commitments you may have, such as family gatherings, weddings, vacations that have been planned already, etc. You are only allowed one cancellation per semester, and you must notify them 72 hours prior to the flight to use it. Because of this, some students had to cancel their flights home last minuite for thanksgiving because they were scheduled to fly Monday afternoon, and the 72 hour cancellation only took effect this week, so they had no chance of using it. Another thing that has taken effect this week is that instead of scheduling 2-3 weeks ahead, flights are now booked generally with between 10 hours to 5 days notice. This rules out scheduling things around your flights, as you have no idea when you will be flying until perhaps the day before, and even then they are changing the times and days of flights right up until the last 10 hours, which paired with the schools 12 hour bottle to throttle rule, forces some students to end up getting no shows as they had been scheduled for an afternoon flight, and get switched to the 8am flight at 10pm the night before. Another significant change that has been implemented this year is that all syllabus flights must now be completed in university aircraft. This change is hurting alot of people right now, as they are either so far behind on flights and want to catch up, or are so far ahead and want to do a couple flights in another schools aircraft, which free's up aircraft for those that need to catch up. In general, it just seems that they are not very acommadating to the students through these and other changes they have made. It means alot of students have had to quit there jobs to be able to do this, and for some this has put them into a corner, because they have no means of income, they have to pay for the tuition (around 60k with flight costs included) and some also have to pay for living expenses ontop of that. They do all this under the guise that "this is how it is in the industry", which is true to an extent, however going to school is not the same as being a pilot in a company, especially when you have to pay for your flights (and keep in mind the a/c costs are higher at mount royal than many other schools in the area), and try and find time to fit in classes and study time, as well as for some a job, though like I said many have just given up on their jobs because of the fact that it is literally impossible to do this year. There are many other things that I have noticed that are wrong with the program, but I will save those for another time as I don't have the time nor patience right now to write anymore
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co-joe
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Re: Mount Royal College

Post by co-joe » Sat Oct 17, 2009 12:17 am

PW123 wrote: HAHA. O Skyordie151. You have a lot to learn yet. As for your Jazz sim instructor, well he may just have as little as 250 hours, as that is what jazz has been hiring guys with. ....
You're a little off the mark there but carry on with the rest.

Anyway, every generation things change at MRC, and every single time they do, the previous generation says that things are going down hill. They said it when Ralph Langman left, they said it when Burt retired. It's the same shit. The college is a large bureaucratic corporation, and things change at a glacial pace. Offering a 4 year degree as an option could be a good thing, hell I might go back and get a degree if I only had to go back for 2 more years.

Anyway time will tell if things really are "going down hill"
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flyinghighagain
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Re: Mount Royal College

Post by flyinghighagain » Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:33 am

As a former student of the program, hearing all this is definitely disappointing.

SafetyFirst.... I do agree that Mr Langeman and Mr Foster are excellent instructors with a wealth of experience. However, the current CFI and Chair of the program have no idea what they are doing. Mr B****** is better suited to running the local flying club than a university-level program. His experience is in general aviation rather then the aviation industry. He has no actual experience outside of ab initio flight training, which hurts the program's reputation for training professional career pilots, as well as the students themselves! Don't you think that as a current student, you should have the most knowledgable and experienced people training you?

The current Chair of the program has ZERO aviation experience and is completely ignorant and naiive about the industry. This is hurting the program more than an inexperienced CFI, but of course, the CFI was hired by this Chair, who has no idea about the industry..... a vicious circle.

Fly'n.... I hear where you are coming from with the auto-scheduling. When I was a student we only knew our flights the day before and you were expected to show up. However, we were allowed to put in a "time-off request form" if you knew you were going home for Thanksgiving for example. Self-scheduling is great for students who can manage their time properly, but it also leaves many of the more unmotivated behind. If implemented properly, the auto-scheduling program does work quite well. As for jobs and things, don't you submit your availability? We always just used to submit our availability for our jobs and then flew around that availability. Hopefully the current administration will get the hang of it before they lose even more students.

Hopefully Mt Royal will get it's act together before they lose more students, lose even more experienced instructors, or completely tarnish their reputation

FHA
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LAX
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Re: Mount Royal College

Post by LAX » Sun Oct 18, 2009 11:34 pm

flyinghighagain wrote:
Self-scheduling is great for students who can manage their time properly, but it also leaves many of the more unmotivated behind.
Haha, sounds like a great system if you ask me. Never saw an issue in allowing the more motivated to be productive.
Although the program has grown in size since I left the whole schedule your own flights concept worked very well when I attended.
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PW123
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Re: Mount Royal College

Post by PW123 » Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:24 am

I agree that self scheduling worked fine. If you were motivated......you finished your flying on time. If you were not......you didnt. When i went through the program we also had a flight scheduler....worked fine because she knew what she was doing and it was handled in the correct way. As for student numbers. I think the program numbers are going down. I heard recently they are down to less than 20 in first year (they hoped for 45+) and somewhere in the 20's for second year. Halfway through first semester and most students have barely started flying. Prices are now up considerably from previous years......more than other schools at CYYC or CYBW and all airplanes are on HOBB's meters. Thats gonna hurt sitting #8 in sequence on the weekend in the Grumman Cougar holding the brakes at $400 an hour.

Students are also having to adhere to strict dress codes. Not only for flying, but for all college courses. So what are your chances of picking up a girl in gym class wearing a shit shirt and tie. what a joke. I do agree with dressing respectable for flights and aviation classes but at what point after these students graduate are they going to be wearing a white shirt with epaulettes and black tie. There is even a mirror when you enter the hangar. Students must look in it.........decide if they look good enough to be at the hangar and if not..leave. For a program trying to instill confidence and leadership into pilots, i cant get over the flow chart on every wall, detailing how to pick up a pencil to......and get ready for this......no joke........a flow chart on how to use the bathroom. You gotta be kidding right? Stop by the hangar for a visit, you will see just what i am talking about.


Too bad too see a program that once put alot of trust and gave you a chance for some decision making transfrom into such a kindergarden hand holding joke.


If you dont believe any of this, PM me. I know first hand from both sides of the desk.
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Re: Mount Royal College

Post by wxguy » Mon Oct 19, 2009 12:58 pm

Post a pic of the bathroom flowchart...we all want to see it! :lol:
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fly'n
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Re: Mount Royal College

Post by fly'n » Mon Oct 19, 2009 3:51 pm

The whole uniform thing now is definatly a joke, if your shirt or pants are wrinkled, you won't be allowed into class, or on a flight (both sim and actual). You must be wearing it on campus at all times between 6am and 6pm, and later if you have classes past these times. The whole idea of that is fine, but for people living on res, they actually have to put their uniform on to go to the gym, to pick up something from the bookstore, library etc, and people have actually been given occurance reports over going to the gym in the morning (keep in mind that for first year students, classes don't start until 3 on tuesdays and thursdays). As for students this year, there is around 25 i think, down from the original 35 i believe due to some people not having their private pilots liscence yet, or not having recieved their class 1 medical certificate in the mail yet from transport (I am not even kidding on that one...). With as many instructors as they have, and as few students, they shouldn't have any excuse for the large differences in flight times thus far, and self scheduling would have definatly worked considering most flight schools are larger than this in terms of students, and have fewer planes and instructors... And yes, it is true that almost everything in the hanger has a flowchart, including the bathroom...
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Lurch
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Re: Mount Royal College

Post by Lurch » Mon Oct 19, 2009 4:15 pm

fly'n wrote:The whole uniform thing now is definatly a joke, if your shirt or pants are wrinkled, you won't be allowed into class, or on a flight (both sim and actual). You must be wearing it on campus at all times between 6am and 6pm, and later if you have classes past these times. The whole idea of that is fine, but for people living on res, they actually have to put their uniform on to go to the gym, to pick up something from the bookstore, library etc, and people have actually been given occurance reports over going to the gym in the morning (keep in mind that for first year students, classes don't start until 3 on tuesdays and thursdays). As for students this year, there is around 25 i think, down from the original 35 i believe due to some people not having their private pilots liscence yet, or not having recieved their class 1 medical certificate in the mail yet from transport (I am not even kidding on that one...). With as many instructors as they have, and as few students, they shouldn't have any excuse for the large differences in flight times thus far, and self scheduling would have definatly worked considering most flight schools are larger than this in terms of students, and have fewer planes and instructors... And yes, it is true that almost everything in the hanger has a flowchart, including the bathroom...

WTF?

I remember back years ago they were discussing the whole uniform thing, but they only said it would be a requirement during aviation courses only. What a bunch of BS, I'd tell them to shove it, let's see them be able to enforce this when you fight it with the higher ups at the school. Sorry but they can't force dress requirments at the school, this was the biggest hurdle they were having when they first were considering it.

What I always found to be the best was the instructors were dressed like slobs, worst dressed instructors on the field but the students always looked clean and neat.

Lurch
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Re: Mount Royal College

Post by SafetyFirst » Mon Oct 19, 2009 4:32 pm

Fly'n, you're obviously a first-year and have no idea of how things were run in the past and don't know WHY there are some of the procedures there are, implemented this year. Everyone on this forum have been talking about bad things they don't like about Mount Royal, but yet nobody has mentioned any of the good things. It's like watching an american news channel. All you hear about on TV is bad news, but in reality, there's so much more good things out there. Anyways, as for the uniform issue, it's in place because some students in the past made fools of themselves around the school or when they were out flying on a cross-country. Because they were in the aviation program, they "represented the program", and because they were making a mockery of themselves, it hurt the program in the view of 3rd party observers. Concerning the rule for wearing of proper clothing (and notice I'm talking about a nice business casual shirt, as Mount Royal doesn't have uniforms), again it's a matter of representing the program and having pride. If all the aviation students wore
t-shirts with profane language on it or even just a shirt with jeans, it's unprofessional looking, and seriously, the aviation industry is a small community, and people DO notice. And buddy, the rule for wearing business attire to the gym no longer exists! I don't know if you guys remember, but you all had dress codes back in high school for the same reason. With the aviation program, its only requirements is that you look neat and professional, there's no uniforms.
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Re: Mount Royal College

Post by just curious » Mon Oct 19, 2009 4:49 pm

While I cheerfully admit to knowing squat about Mount Royal's program, save the fact that it is Alberta based, I have a question to toss out to the crowd...

Back in the Day, Ralph Langeman was either the guy in charge, or at the very least, mentor to everyone there. As I understand it, he is retired now. Prior to that, he was a Budworm pilot on the TBMs back when I was in NB. Probably the last guy to fly a Lancaster for a living. Knew everybody that was anybody.

So... who does the College have waiting in the wings to replace him? I understand the College wanted someone with curriculum development experience, and presumably, the new folks, CFI etcetera have that. Once the new curriculum is in place, who will be around with a shred of industry experience?

New pilots need mentors. Grizzled old bastards that can say "You're an idiot, but if you can stop being stupid for 10 minutes, I can call someone from the south end of YYC to show you why you need to look at more than just the HSI. Maybe while he's at it you can look at their new Turbo Swearingen Mushmonster and ask a few questions..."

I'm a chatty guy. Used to be whenever I got into Calgary, I couldn't walk 3 feet across the ramp without some kid from Mount Royal pestering me about a tour of the Twin Otter, and the hangar, and a million questions relating to my job. We hired 12 of them that I remember, and a couple who I don't. But I know damned well Ralph sent them.

Curriculum development is nice. But any idiot could fly to Toronto, and give a Seneca guy a case of beer, and have the Syllabus laid out on the bar in 5 minutes flat. Colleges need and will always continue to require old experienced bastards.

Who do you have?

JC
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PW123
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Re: Mount Royal College

Post by PW123 » Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:45 pm

enjoy
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Re: Mount Royal College

Post by Cat Driver » Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:39 pm

Dear God in Heaven I actually thought you guys were just kidding about the flow chart for using the bathroom.....

.....is that chart genuine and from the school?

Because if it is I really couldn't hire one of their graduates to fly an airplane with a certificate from that outfit because I would be laughing so hard I would not be able to speak.
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fly'n
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Re: Mount Royal College

Post by fly'n » Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:49 pm

SafetyFirst wrote:Fly'n, you're obviously a first-year and have no idea of how things were run in the past and don't know WHY there are some of the procedures there are, implemented this year. Everyone on this forum have been talking about bad things they don't like about Mount Royal, but yet nobody has mentioned any of the good things. It's like watching an american news channel. All you hear about on TV is bad news, but in reality, there's so much more good things out there. Anyways, as for the uniform issue, it's in place because some students in the past made fools of themselves around the school or when they were out flying on a cross-country. Because they were in the aviation program, they "represented the program", and because they were making a mockery of themselves, it hurt the program in the view of 3rd party observers. Concerning the rule for wearing of proper clothing (and notice I'm talking about a nice business casual shirt, as Mount Royal doesn't have uniforms), again it's a matter of representing the program and having pride. If all the aviation students wore
t-shirts with profane language on it or even just a shirt with jeans, it's unprofessional looking, and seriously, the aviation industry is a small community, and people DO notice. And buddy, the rule for wearing business attire to the gym no longer exists! I don't know if you guys remember, but you all had dress codes back in high school for the same reason. With the aviation program, its only requirements is that you look neat and professional, there's no uniforms.
Yes, I understand that there are reasons for each and every rule that they have there, however I personally don't understand how having every aviation student wearing dress shirts and pants is going to give them a better image. Sure it looks good, but when you see one of the aviation students doing something that could potentially hurt the progrom, you know forsure now that it is an aviation student as there is little to know doubt that it is them since they are quite literally the only people wearing clothes like that. Sure, maybe make us wear it for flying, and even courses like the groundschool, and engines one, but making us wear clothes like that is going to do nothing to how someone behaves. How many programs are there that mount royal offers? and out of that, aviation and nursing are the only ones with formal dress codes in place, and nursing is mostly due to hospital requirements more than anything else. are all the broadcasting, legal studies, engineering, etc students unprofessional just because they wear a T-shirt and jeans? No, professionalism is measured by how you conduct yourself when people are not watching, and how you treat others, no amount of clothing is going to change that... And they re-instated the dress code when going to the gym, it is now at all times when you are on campus, regardless of the reason.
My main complaint about the program wasn't even about the dress code anyways, it was about how utterly retarded scheduling is set up. They could have implemented that way better, like for example letting us book off weekends that we know we can't fly (literally the stupidest rule in the entire program. This is school, we can't commit every waking hour to the program, people have lives and need to get other things done...), allowing more than 1 cancellation per semester, especially when they are booking us and we have no control over when we get booked. Better yet, we could schedule ourselves like everyone did during their PPL, and like most other schools do. If you can't manage your time efficiently enough to get them done on time, it's your own loss...
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Re: Mount Royal College

Post by co-joe » Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:03 am

I think Selkirk and Seneca students have to wear uniforms to school and on flights don't they?

Fact is, you tend to act more professionally if you dress the part.

JC, after Ralph Langman and Knobby Clark, Bert Marcott was the chair. He had flown the F100 and the 101 ("one oh wunders") and was a wealth of knowledge. Next, the late Dave Oldford took over. He had been a bizjet pilot in the oil patch prior to losing his medical. Again lots of industry experience and he went on to teach in the sim at WJ after the college. Since then I really don't know where they got their experience from.
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Re: Mount Royal College

Post by shitdisturber » Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:59 am

There's only one solution for you current Mt Royal students, rebellion. If they think so little of you as individuals that they feel it necessary to create a flow chart for the washroom, you're going to have to live down to their expectations. Therefore you should; leave the lights on when you're finished, write down everything on the rectification sheet no matter how trivial, and most important of all, never wash your hands when you're finished while continuing to use as much paper towel as possible. :lol:
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Re: Mount Royal College

Post by macbainz1 » Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:07 pm

PW123 wrote:enjoy

thanks, that might be useful.....i never learned properly.
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Re: Mount Royal College

Post by FlaplessDork » Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:01 pm

I heard through the grapevine that they are writing students up for mistakes. Simple things as drawing a line through a mistake in the logbook. Their reasoning is that they shouldn't make mistakes.
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Re: Mount Royal College

Post by fly'n » Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:49 pm

FlaplessDork wrote:I heard through the grapevine that they are writing students up for mistakes. Simple things as drawing a line through a mistake in the logbook. Their reasoning is that they shouldn't make mistakes.
Yes, they are actually doing that. I believe that using a blue pen instead of a black pen is grounds for being written up too, and when you get written up 3 times, regardless of the reasons, you have to go infront of a progress review board, so being written up for something like this can actually be quite costly.
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Re: Mount Royal College

Post by just curious » Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:59 pm

Holy crap!
I've used the same BLUE pen for the last 25, 365.2 hours. I'd be toast.
:cry:
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Re: Mount Royal College

Post by shitdisturber » Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:29 pm

fly'n wrote:
FlaplessDork wrote:I heard through the grapevine that they are writing students up for mistakes. Simple things as drawing a line through a mistake in the logbook. Their reasoning is that they shouldn't make mistakes.
Yes, they are actually doing that. I believe that using a blue pen instead of a black pen is grounds for being written up too, and when you get written up 3 times, regardless of the reasons, you have to go infront of a progress review board, so being written up for something like this can actually be quite costly.
I'd advise any student who gets written up for using a blue pen to point out to the half wit doing the writing that a blue pen is both legal and acceptable. I would then float the idea that being written up for such trivialities is harassment worthy of a complaint, not to the program head or CFI but to the Dean of MRU itself. You might want to remember, and apparently the twits running this farce might want to remember; that while you're a student, you're also a customer and deserve to be treated as such.
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Re: Mount Royal College

Post by LAX » Tue Oct 20, 2009 10:41 pm

The focus more recently seems to be more on your ability to fill out a Journey log correctly rather than your ability to handle an aircraft.
I agree that you need to know how to do your paper work and dress properly but it seems ridiculous a perfectly proficient pilot can be thrown out of the program for not wearing a shirt and tie to gym class and using the wrong color pen. Seems a little ridiculous when most of the grads would be laughed out of a job wearing anything other than jeans or coverall flight suites for the next 3-5 years of their career. Not that any of the college administrators (who ultimately are running the program) would know that. The only perception they have of a pilot is what they see when they take their biannual vacations on an Air Canada 767.
As far as fighting these things students have been accused of insubordination and harboring a rebellious (therefore unsafe?) attitudes when trying to bring the issue up. In fact in one case a fellow student forgot a tie, was written up, and when he went to fight it was threated to be written up again for insubordination. On top of that, this was a few years ago, when dressing up was only "strongly encouraged". From what I've seen and heard the system has gotten significantly more strict and quite out of hand. A little disappointing to see.
Hopefully for the sake of students and the past graduates MRC does not totally destroy their reputation.
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Re: Mount Royal College

Post by FlaplessDork » Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:07 pm

The danger of being written up for everything is that it makes people not want to report the real safety hazards.
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Re: Mount Royal College

Post by jljhlhl » Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:38 pm

Is Mount Royal's aviation program really this bad? I'm currently in my grade 12 year, and need to decide what to do with my life after HS. I've long debated becoming a pilot, and now that the time is here to start applying for programs, I'm scrambling to decide what to do since I'm running out of time, so I've gone back to looking at this as an option.

Being in Calgary and having universities/colleges coming to talk to our school, I've checked out courses and of course saw Mount Royal's aviation program and have been looking for reviews and first hand experiences from them, and thankfully found this topic.

Some of the latest posts really have me concerned with strict dress codes? Flow charts for going to the bathroom? And rules over the color of pen you use? Is all of this really true? I understand this is a professional type job, and is serious, but some of this just seems absurd.

Can any current students or very recent graduates tell me if they would even recommend applying for this program? As well, I've looked over the website and become quite confused with some of their information. Can anyone comment on how much money the entire program cost them, as well as how many hours of actual flying they received?

Lastly, as recent graduates what kind of jobs have some of you picked up directly after graduating from the program, and then several years down the road?

Thanks all.
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Re: Mount Royal College

Post by Lurch » Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:59 am

jljhlhl wrote:Is Mount Royal's aviation program really this bad? I'm currently in my grade 12 year, and need to decide what to do with my life after HS. I've long debated becoming a pilot, and now that the time is here to start applying for programs, I'm scrambling to decide what to do since I'm running out of time, so I've gone back to looking at this as an option.

Being in Calgary and having universities/colleges coming to talk to our school, I've checked out courses and of course saw Mount Royal's aviation program and have been looking for reviews and first hand experiences from them, and thankfully found this topic.

Some of the latest posts really have me concerned with strict dress codes? Flow charts for going to the bathroom? And rules over the color of pen you use? Is all of this really true? I understand this is a professional type job, and is serious, but some of this just seems absurd.

Can any current students or very recent graduates tell me if they would even recommend applying for this program? As well, I've looked over the website and become quite confused with some of their information. Can anyone comment on how much money the entire program cost them, as well as how many hours of actual flying they received?

Lastly, as recent graduates what kind of jobs have some of you picked up directly after graduating from the program, and then several years down the road?

Thanks all.
What you are reading is mostly correct. Their program has been going down hill for years, whether it has hit bottom yet has yet to be determined.

18 is still young and as much as you may think otherwise you have plenty of time. You will need to plan on having at least $65,000. Take a year or two off once you graduate and get a job. It will give you time to safe some money, mature, and you can get your Private licence. After a few years working you'll have a better idea of what you want to do for the rest of your life. I think 10% of my class left aviation within a few years of graduating.

You will start out your career loading bags and cleaning toilets. After a year or two of this you'll take a pay cut and sit right seat but not yet allowed to touch the controls until you can prove that you know how to make radio calls. Insert severe sarcasm. :wink:

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Re: Mount Royal College

Post by FlaplessDork » Tue Nov 03, 2009 11:21 am

jljhlhl wrote:Some of the latest posts really have me concerned with strict dress codes? Flow charts for going to the bathroom? And rules over the color of pen you use? Is all of this really true? I understand this is a professional type job, and is serious, but some of this just seems absurd.
Some of this stuff is normal or required everywhere. It's not so much the rules that are the issue but how they are inforced. Sometimes punishing someone is not the best way to correct a mistake.
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