Can you join a right base at an MF

[ry6198]

Can you join a Right Base at an MF? (if not where does it say you can not)

[scopiton]

yes when airport advisory is available
AIM RAC 4.5.2 (a) -vi-

upwind then downwind when no advisory
AIM RAC 4.5.2 (a) -vii-

[cgzro]

http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/Aerod ... new197.htm

Basically if the traffic advisory is available the base, final, downwind or slant to downwind and of course overhead are permitted. Otherwise, its same as uncontrolled (overhead or downwind).

[Tango01]

I think you are asking about the right base on a left hand circuit. Then the answer is NO. You may joint the left base (the live side of the circuit), but you can't join the base for the right side because that "base" has not been established in the circuit pattern and you are coming from the dead side which would conflict with other aircraft. The only way was if the airport was controlled and had a tower and they cleared you as such.

[BTD]

I think you are asking about the right base on a left hand circuit. Then the answer is NO. You may joint the left base (the live side of the circuit), but you can't join the base for the right side because that "base" has not been established in the circuit pattern and you are coming from the dead side which would conflict with other aircraft. The only way was if the airport was controlled and had a tower and they cleared you as such.

+1

A.I.M. RAC 4.5.2

(vi) Aerodromes within an MF area when airport advisory information is available: Aircraft may join the circuit pattern straight-in or at 45˚ to the downwind leg or straight-in to the base or final legs (Figure 4.1).

Although we all know that the AIM is not law, and you will not find the above in the CARS.

However, I think I have only every heard FSS give an aircraft a hard time once, about joining on the opposite side. If it is an issue for them, tell them that you will be joining final and fly a few miles outside the circuit then turn in.

BTD

[North Shore]

Thompson used to be famous for this - come from the south when 05 (now 06) was active, over the stack, and right base to final. Everyone did it, and then a few got violated, and everyone stopped. Now we just fly a 5 mile right base, and call joining final. Or, for those a little more daring, call entering the zone, fly a right base, and then call final, with no mention of a right base..

[iflyforpie]

I remember getting burned in Penticton for this. All circuits to the east of the field, we were coming from the west. The terrain makes it just about impossible to do an overhead cross from the west without a dive bomber approach and we didn't feel like going miles out of the way to join a final.

In Cranbrook, the PASCO guys regularly join base leg on the wrong side. Not an issue with Cranbrook Radio or anyone else.

[Shiny Side Up]

Can you join a Right Base at an MF? (if not where does it say you can not)

I always love these questions, it usually indicates a thought process where someone is looking to do something that in their gut they probably know they shouldn't do. In most cases Should you do something is more important than can you do something. Another important distinction is do you need to do this or do you want to do this?

[Strega]

Can someone show the the specific car, that says you cannot do a straight in at an uncontrolled airport?

As for the MF thing, the whole purpose of the MF is so pilots (not the guy on the ground) can sort out their traffic conflictions, whats the issue if you want to join on the opposite base if there is no conflict? if can potentially save a heap of time.

[Shiny Side Up]

As for the MF thing, the whole purpose of the MF is so pilots (not the guy on the ground) can sort out their traffic conflictions, whats the issue if you want to join on the opposite base if there is no conflict? if can potentially save a heap of time.

First, how do you know there's no conflict? The problem with joining on the opposite base is you minimise other pilots ability to see you, and yours to see them. Don't count on someone else to be able to determine wether they conflict with you - I see this lots in uncontrolled airspace, especially when you get planes into the mix with widely differing speeds, for which most pilots are unfamiliar with. Never count on the fact that another pilot has taken into account. Secondly, most aren't aware how many aircraft there are out there that are NORDO, either knowingly or not. Wouldn't be the first pilot I'd seen that forgot to switch over a frequency when they thought that they were coming into a sleepy little airport.

What's this "heap" of time we're saving? Say five minutes? If I only had a dollar for every time someone needed to save five minutes and cut me off I wouldn't need to be working for a living anymore.

[navajo]

CARS for the right hand circuit:

602.96 (3): The pilot-in-command of an aircraft operating at or in the vicinity of an aerodrome shall:

(c) make all turns to the left when operating within the aerodrome traffic circuit, except where right turns are specified by the Minister in the Canada Flight Supplement or where otherwise authorized by the appropriate air traffic control unit;

The way I understand it is that you cannot do a right hand hand circuit at any aerodrome unless specified in the CFS, or if cleared by the tower.

For the circuit procedure in a MF (straigh in), I don't find nothing.

[Strega]

First, how do you know there's no conflict?

Because we are on a MF in controlled airspace and are talking to each other.

The see and be seen idea is fine most of the time, but the reason we have these things called MFs
is to use other means (the radio) to resolve conflicts.

What's this "heap" of time we're saving? Say five minutes?

well in 172 land its no big deal, but in the real world commerical flying 5 mins here and there at high power settings
adds up VERY quickly. Why do you think air operators make such a stink when a go around is done?

[Strega]

CARS for the right hand circuit:

602.96 (3): The pilot-in-command of an aircraft operating at or in the vicinity of an aerodrome shall:

(c) make all turns to the left when operating within the aerodrome traffic circuit, except where right turns are specified by the Minister in the Canada Flight Supplement or where otherwise authorized by the appropriate air traffic control unit;

The way I understand it is that you cannot do a right hand hand circuit at any aerodrome unless specified in the CFS, or if cleared by the tower.

For the circuit procedure in a MF (straigh in), I don't find nothing.

So heres one, you SHALL make all turns to the left,, but what if you dont make any turns? ie straight in?
you can look and look for ever, but there is no CAR prohibiting a straight in at an uncontrolled airport, and likewise you cannot be busted for doing so.

[navajo]

I agree

[Spokes]

COmming straight in at an uncontrolled airport where there is an MF should not be a problem since evryone there should be on the radio and theoretically you should know where everyone is. The AIM advises only to do this where an advisory service is available, but I have never seen it as dangerous to do so if there is not.

At an uncontrolled aerodrome where there is no MF, (ATF only) it could be somewhat different. Here there is a real possibility of nordo traffic. In this case it is not assured that everyone knows where everyone else is. The pilot on left base is more than likely to be looking ahead or in the direction of the runway, not to the right looking for strait in traffic (probably). So now you are down one set of eyes to resolve conflict. If you do not see the traffic on base, then there is room for conflict. I have had this happen to me.

In this case joing in a standard manner is safest (IMHO) because it gives you the best opportunity to see all trafic in the circuit (including nordo stuff), and more importantly you are in a place where all this other traffic should be looking for you- no surprises.

It seems to work for me. I don't know how many times someone has decided to come straight in opposite me while climbing out. It can be un-nerving.


my $.02

[square]

lol

anyone that thinks circling around an uncontrolled airport for an extra 5 minutes is safer is out to lunch.

the only thing keeping you from hitting another airplane is your wide eyeballs.

if you feel like looking out for an extra 4 minutes go ahead, i only like to get near the airport to check for vehicles and aircraft departing. if you think doing some 740 degrees of turns around will help you find someone go ahead, but if i hear its clear or if theres traffic on the "LIVE SIDE" ill go ahead and take the other side to stay out of their way. since there's nothing to prevent people from coming in on the dead side anyway.

if you dont want to incriminate yourself for being on the "wrong side" so you can stay out of the way of conflicting traffic, just do whatever approach procedure you like, call "3 miles southeast, manoeuvering for the straight-in 09" and you're golden.

[altiplano]

-

[Hedley]

Good Lord.

Sometimes I suspect that people here would argue over
a hot turd in the noonday sun

If you call right base at an MF (to a runway that has left
traffic) then you are clearly contravening CAR 602.96(3).

However. If you call that you are going to join a straight
in final, then the sanctity of CAR 602.96(3) remains intact

What is interesting to note is that the dimensions of the
circuit (eg distances of downwind and base legs from
runway) are not defined anywhere in the CARs or even
the AIM, which is NOT regulatory.

So, someone is going to have an uphill battle claiming
you in fact flew a right base, when all you did was join
a straight in final OUTSIDE the lateral dimensions of the
circuit, which is completely legal at an MF, or even an
ATF for that matter.

See, you could have joined a straight in final to an MF
runway 100 miles back, via what Transport might call
a "right base", and it would not surprise me if the Tribunal
agreed with Transport that a circuit has dimensions of
100 miles or more - the Tribunal does very strange and
unprofessional things, sometimes.

But, if you're willing to take it to Federal Court, you
have a much better chance of having someone pay
attention to the law, which is clearly on your side in
this case.

[ry6198]

[quote="Hedley"]

If you call right base at an MF (to a runway that has left
traffic) then you are clearly contravening CAR 602.96(3).

However. If you call that you are going to join a straight
in final, then the sanctity of CAR 602.96(3) remains intact

What is interesting to note is that the dimensions of the
circuit (eg distances of downwind and base legs from
runway) are not defined anywhere in the CARs or even
the AIM, which is NOT regulatory.

So, someone is going to have an uphill battle claiming
you in fact flew a right base, when all you did was join
a straight in final OUTSIDE the lateral dimensions of the
circuit, which is completely legal at an MF, or even an
ATF for that matter.

Thank you Hedley, that is what i was looking for

[deflux]

I thought straight in downwind and mid left downwind were the only ways you can join at an ATF?