restart the egine

[scopiton]

after 1 engine shut down during a multi training flight do you use the electric fuel pump when firing the starter or do you do a hot start untill it fires ?

[tired of the ground]

Do what it says in the AFM/POH.

What kind of A/C are we talking about and how long was it shut down.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Unfortunately the TC mandated insanity of actual inflight shutdowns continues....
Some points to consider (assuming no prop unfeathering accumulator is fitted)

1) All light twins have margianl performance ar best on one engine. An actual single engine landing is a true emergency because as soon as you put the gear down the airplane is going down. The truely horrible accident statistics for single engine go arounds attests to how hard they are to do in the real world so if you are on final on one engine you are commited to land and you are only going to get one chance so you have to get it right the first time

2) There is no certification requirement for the engine to be able to be restarted in flight under all conditions. If you keep doing it sooner or later you will find a set of conditions where the engine just will not start. Therefore you should plan on this every time you shut down the engine and ensure wx and wind conditions at your home airport are favorable for an actual single engine landing and you are close to the field with lots of altitude in hand.

3)There is no absolute certainty that the prop will actually feather. The worse case scenario is the prop hangs up and you wind up with horrendous windmill drag. If this happens you will going down fast.

4) Every aircraft has specific procedures for the inflight start. They must be followed exactly and there is no place for FTU good ideas.

5) When you get into the situation where the engine will not start with the starter and you have followed all the POH checklists, the only hope is to get the prop unfeathered and windmilling on the fine pitch stops (that is a low cruise RPM). At this point add full rich mixture and the engine will pick up every time. Things to try is a hard yaw while at the same time cycling the prop lever. You can also try cranking the engine after diving to a high cruise speed.

[ywgflyboy]

As per checklist... Although nothing worked for me during my multi training!

On my feather exercise the engine would not un-feather and we began loosing alt pretty rapidly. We got to the point we were scanning for wires and a field to land in. Those familiar with CYWG area, we dragged in for runway 13 from the NW unable to circle over the city to land into wind. Would have landed on a two story building no doubt. I figure if we had gone 2 hours later in the afternoon and it was a few degrees warmer, we would have never made it.

[mcrit]

On my feather exercise the engine would not un-feather and we began loosing alt pretty rapidly.

What type of a/c and fuel load did you have?

[ywgflyboy]

On my feather exercise the engine would not un-feather and we began loosing alt pretty rapidly.

What type of a/c and fuel load did you have?

BE95... No idea about the fuel, took off full tanks and this happened about 45mins into flight. Were doing quite a bit of descents to missed point etc, so I can't accurately estimate.

[Tango01]

Hey Morgan;

Remember that POS Seminole at CNU8? I had a hard time getting the right engine going again after the shutdown. Good thing it was October and we were close to Oshawa....

[mcrit]

[ywgflyboy]

Hey Morgan;

Remember that POS Seminole at CNU8? I had a hard time getting the right engine going again after the shutdown. Good thing it was October and we were close to Oshawa....

I sure do Pablo! That was why I always did that exercise 6000' directly over Oshawa with half fuel. The strange thing is that I never had trouble keeping 6000' under those conditions with one shut down in that a/c; that's why I was surprised to hear that the BE95 couldn't hold altitude. The only time I ever got worried in that Seminole was when the radio stack started to smoke.

Aric, how hot was it the day you did your shutdown?

Talk about memory digging It was a typical Prairie summer afternoon... If my memory IS correct when I get an OAT check it was 24 on the ground. Got up to around 28 that day a few hours later.

[mcrit]

Sorry to put you on the spot there Aric .

[ywgflyboy]

Sorry to put you on the spot there Aric .

You collecting data of engine faliures in multi training to send on over to Transport?

[mathewc]

I did my engine out exercise in an Apache at about 3000 right above the airport. The feathered engine would not restart after several restart attempts so we looped around and did and engine out landing. In hindsight I realize that could have ended up very bad if we had to overshoot for whatever reason, but now I know I can do it. After landing we got a spray company to unfeather the props since it wouldn't even start on the ground. Taxiing with one engine out is a little difficult!

[Lurch]

I've been avoiding this topic in order to keep the blood pressure down but after that last post I can't bite my tongue any longer.

WHY the heck are people going out and purposely causing themselves emergencies?

Yes I know TC says so, who cares? Do you really think after to plow into the ground that anybody is going to care. NO, this is a dangerous flirt with disaster you are playing and nobodies going to be there to protect your butt after the fact.

If TC says you need to demo a spin at 500' for the CPL are you going to do it because they said so?

TC cannot come into my airplane and have me do something unsafe. If anything happens it's my butt.

There are a few stories above that luckily ended safely but they could have easily ended up with your death.

Why does this happen?

Easy you have a instructor with only 50 hours multi time and they can't wait to build that golden MPIC. They don't have the experience or smarts to question why. All they care is that the time is going into a new column.

Go to the sim and practice this, you'll have lots of room for error, live longer, and maybe the joy of crashing the sim. My favorite way to end every sim session.

Lurch

[Big Pistons Forever]

I've been avoiding this topic in order to keep the blood pressure down but after that last post I can't bite my tongue any longer.

WHY the heck are people going out and purposely causing themselves emergencies?

Yes I know TC says so, who cares? Do you really think after to plow into the ground that anybody is going to care. NO, this is a dangerous flirt with disaster you are playing and nobodies going to be there to protect your butt after the fact.

If TC says you need to demo a spin at 500' for the CPL are you going to do it because they said so?

TC cannot come into my airplane and have me do something unsafe. If anything happens it's my butt.

There are a few stories above that luckily ended safely but they could have easily ended up with your death.

Why does this happen?

Easy you have a instructor with only 50 hours multi time and they can't wait to build that golden MPIC. They don't have the experience or smarts to question why. All they care is that the time is going into a new column.

Go to the sim and practice this, you'll have lots of room for error, live longer, and maybe the joy of crashing the sim. My favorite way to end every sim session.

Lurch

A big plus one. When I was young and dumb I did the inflight feather silliness with every student, but now if I was to do another ME rating I would flat out refuse to do an inflight shutdown. What needs to happen is that every instructor in Canada has to just refuse to do this exercise. TC can hardly stop processing the ratings if everybody is together in this. The sad part is I have met many instructors who think the inflight shut down is a good idea My first post on this thread was aimed at them.

[scopiton]

the question is not to know if this exercise is safe or not (climbing in a twin with a guy who barely remember how to use rudders during stall is in itself a stupid thing) the question is to know why you keep following POH / AFM when it doesn't work ?
after few unsuccessfull tries why not restart the engine with the fuel pump on and wait at iddle for the engine to warm up again before applying the required power. oil can cool down upthere.
with regards to your #4 Big Piston and with respect to your experience, I use what is necessary even if it should defer from what the POH says.
you can fly straight and level with 1engine and gear down, you'll loose speed but that is perfectly doable as long as you don't reach the lower part of the power curve . if not possible, the twin is underppowered and might not be that "cool" to fly.
but why the heck would you fly straight and level with 1 engine an gears down before being established final ?

[Lurch]

If your engine has quit it's an emergency. Do whatever you can to try and get it restarted, yes this can included you fuel pump. I just set the controls in the normal start position and let the windmilling and mags do their job.

If the engine has quit because you shut it down, well then you're an idiot. I just hope nobody dies because of your stupidity.

Lurch

[C-GPFG]

As per checklist... Although nothing worked for me during my multi training!

On my feather exercise the engine would not un-feather and we began loosing alt pretty rapidly. We got to the point we were scanning for wires and a field to land in. Those familiar with CYWG area, we dragged in for runway 13 from the NW unable to circle over the city to land into wind. Would have landed on a two story building no doubt. I figure if we had gone 2 hours later in the afternoon and it was a few degrees warmer, we would have never made it.

Hence why my shut down lessons were all in very controlled situations...great weather, and always on a high downwind to some airport when I shut them down. I had the starter not engage on one restart once. We gave it one last try on the base and it worked. I also had a student bring the good engine's mixture to cut off once too. The 3 bladed Seminole flew a lot worse with one shut down than the 2 bladed Seminole..hence I did 99% of the shut downs in the 2 bladed aircraft. All were intended to reduce the severity of the emergency we were creating. The simulator the school had was great practice and, if I was still doing those ratings, I'd like to see that exercise moved into approved sims.

[scopiton]

Lurch
if you have nothing to think about please keep your insults

fly safe and keep the controls away from your hands

[Lurch]

Insults, sorry but purposely creating an emergency in a perfectly good airplane is stupid. Especially when you know you will have difficulties restarting.

Please explain why you feel this is an acceptable risk?

How about not shutting the engine down? Then you don't have to worry about restarting.

Lurch

[x-wind]

If you’re doing a restart you should have an idea of why it quit, it could have been the engine driven pump and thus you need the aux one going.. For practice you would have to be mindful of flooding it.

Purposely shutting down an engine near the ground and or planning to land w/ it shut down is very very unnecessary and silly IMO.

However, the in air shutdown has some merit- the experience of the stress for the student and the required calm and collected response is the real reason its done IMHO. I wouldn't want to be in the back of some airplanes regardless, but I would prefer the guy to have had an engine wind milling or feathered once before if it were to happen inadvertently.

[Big Pistons Forever]

[quote="x-wind"

However, the in air shutdown has some merit- the experience of the stress for the student and the required calm and collected response is the real reason its done IMHO. I wouldn't want to be in the back of some airplanes regardless, but I would prefer the guy to have had an engine wind milling or feathered once before if it were to happen inadvertently.[/quote]

In a perfect world everyone who is doing the multi rating would have access to a level 5 or higher flight sim. That way all the really dangerous exercises could be practiced in a safe environment. The challenge is to balance risk versus training value. I have heard numerous instructor justify the in flight shut down as a necessary "experience" for the student which cannot replicated with simulating the engine failure by retarding the throttle. But if you use that logic are we not depriving the student of "real" experiences by say

- Calling for a go around at 5 ft above the runway and then immediately pulling throttle on one engine. After all we practice the engine cut at altitude so are we not depriving the student of the experience of doing the exercise close to the ground because that is where we are doing for it for "real" by defintion.

-or takeoff with enough gas to do the flight plus 10 min. That way we can duplicate the stress of a real low fuel emergency

-or duplicating an electrical failure by pulling every circuit breaker.


I would say most instructors would reply "what are you nuts" if I suggested actually creating those emergency situations to enhance the realism, so why is deliberatly creating an actual engine failure OK ?

[767]

Lurch
if you have nothing to think about please keep your insults

fly safe and keep the controls away from your hands

lol... +1

[Lurch]

BPF you beat me to it.

Risk/Reward people

I've seen two engine fires in my career. The second went better then the first, does this mean I should set a students engine on fire so they get the experiance?

Lurch

[Lurch]

Lurch
if you have nothing to think about please keep your insults

fly safe and keep the controls away from your hands

lol... +1

This does remind me of trying to help you. So inexperienced but so cocky that you know it all.

One day 767 you'll have instructed enough to do Multi training and unless you smarten up and start listening to others who have been flying longer then you've been alive, I expect you'll also be this stupid, I do hope you mature before you kill somebody.

Lurch

[scopiton]

Please explain why you feel this is an acceptable risk?
Lurch

I guess this is where begins risk management which is all about training. where do you stop realism in training while simulating an emergency by not transforming this in a real emergency ? BPF has somegood points about it, absurdity has to have limits.
so
I care about restarting the engine because I dont want the exercise to become a real emergency. While flying a twin with only 1 engine shouldn't ignitiate a loss of attitude or altitude, it shows the student that the aircraft reacts pretty well in certain conditions- weather permitting- and that he will always have an option if this happens for real. otherwise one could think that loosing 1 engine in a twin is the worst, which is not true.

what do you teach when you shut down an engine in flight ? the basics to survive. if you don't teach them, how is the "pilot" going to react when he discovers this for real with all the stress involved in a high perf aircraft ?
Not being able to stand a voluntary engine shutdown in a controlled environment and a good weather leave room for doubts about the pilot's reaction in commercial ops involving pax.

what is the purpose of declaring an emergency if you loose an engine =
1) to obtain support on the ground and clear the airspace to go around and land safely ?
2) because you're not sure to bring it back safely on the ground ?

all this discussion reminds me about IFR training : YES, but not in the clouds.........

I had enough,
thank you, and goodnight