Flight Training Businesses & The Diesel Engine

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Flight Training Businesses & The Diesel Engine

Post by per_aspera_ad_astra »

Flight Training Businesses & The Diesel Engine

We all know that in recent years a large chunk of Canadian Flight Training business has been from foreign customers. Either GA enthusiast pilots or Commercial license seeking students.This also true for the United States. Arguably, the Transport Canada licensing standards are much higher than our FAA counterparts. While setting a good benchmark for flight safety and quality training is part of the reason why people choose Canadian FTUs, the major reason is that they are also very cost effective.

European customers pay up to 3 times as much for flight time, while Indian, Chinese and Middle Eastern customers are often not only faced with higher prices in their own countries but a complete lack of infrastructure - both airport facility and fleet-wise.

Even amongst Canadian students - the tendency is to select the most cost effective school. When a Professional Pilot Program can cost as much as $50,000 it is just a matter of good spending to choose the most economical school rather than whatever is closer to home.

And this is where diesel comes in.

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AvGas Reciprocating Engines - Dinosaurs?

Right now, the price of a barrel of oil is hovering at $70. General Aviation boomed in the 7/8/90s when the price of a barrel usually hovered at the sub $20 level. As such, most reciprocating aircraft engines in use today were designed with the efficiency that those times demanded. Engine manufacturers must always make a trade-off between costs in Research & Design, Engine Complexity and efficiency. Oil Prices back then did not require hugely efficient engines.

The Lycomings and Continentals in use today in a majority of training aircraft are great, reliable engines. However, it must be realised that they are decades old designs, in some cases only slightly changed designs of World War 2 engines.
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The Price of Oil - No Comfort

You do not need to be a believer in the idea of Peak Oil. The combined population of China and India by 2007 estimates is about 2.47 Billion people. And unlike the 1970s,80s or 90s - these countries are now emerging economic powerhouses. That means this is potentially two and half billion consumers of oil. Regardless of whether oil will ever run out or not, I can guarantee that with 2.47 Billion strong demand, supply will be short - and prices will remain high and rise.

Does anyone remember the AvGas Prices from the Summer of last year - when a barrel of oil peaked at around $147? I remember the AvGas Fuel Surcharge that had begun to hurt everyone. It would be extremely short-sighted to forget, and to not expect this to happen again. The only reason prices have dropped is the tanking of the world economy. Asian financial markets have continued to grow, the European Union is reporting a slow recovery, as is Canada and the US. It is only a matter of time that Oil demand begins to rise again.
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General Aviation's Decline - A Whole Lot of Crying

It seems that everyone who follows General Aviation, especially veterans from "The Good Ol' Days" notices that GA is dying a slow death. In recent years high prices, bad legislation and an inability to project the General Aviation as a "People & Environment Friendly" has lead to a decline in popularity. Less and less people can afford to buy or rent an aircraft - and just buzz around for the sheer joy of flight.

The problem here will not be solved by coming out with a Sport Pilot Permit (although that is a good step). For all the complaining and crying that I hear - the truth is (and we must accept it) is that we as a community have done nothing to change the state of affairs. We do not drive the beautiful but gas guzzling cars of the 60s, then why do we wonder why lesser and lesser people are entering the world of GA - where we fly gas guzzlers for a hobby?

It's about time we stop complaining and start changing. Like it or not, people care about the Environment. I suspect an even greater number of people care about their bank statements and how much they spend on fuel. The Good News is that people still love to fly, and they would love to hop in a plane just for the experience. We have to change and make that affordable.
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The Case For Diesel

As you can see, I've been building up the case for diesel over the last few paragraphs, so you already know where this is going.

As of now, in the United States AvGas is already under the threat of extinction. Whether it will or will not happen is anybody's guess. What is certain is that AvGas is becoming less profitable for Refineries, and in the end - they care about their bottom line and profit margins and don't actually give a damn about you and your passion for flight. Add this to the almost certain fact that oil prices will rise and it becomes obvious that being dependant on AvGas is not the way to go.

A lot of people have heard of the Diesel Engine for Aviation - most people will recall the Diamond DA-42 Twin Star and it's Thielert Engines (the DA-42 holds the record for fuel consumption while crossing the Atlantic - a meagre 5.74 gallons per hour or 2.87 gallons per hour per engine)

A lot of people also know that Thielert went bankrupt due to some crooked upper management handling. What most people don't know is that Thielert is now back under the brand banner of Centurion Aircraft Engines and is back in business and running full capacity.

What a lot of people don't know either is that Centurion formerly Thielert is not the only one out there with a diesel solution. There is a lot of companies out there with diesel engines, some of them already with FAA Approval, some half way through the process. So this is to dispell the myth that Diesel Engines are "experimental". In fact, the US Army uses Thielert/Centurion engines and I found this press release stating their reliabiltiy:
Lichtenstein/Saxony, August 31, 2009 – The U.S. Army has made extremely positive comments on the reliability of CENTURION 2.0 engines. For years these engines have been deployed worldwide in the reconnaissance drones manufactured by General Atomics. The U.S. Army plans to expand its fleet of drones in 2010, while continuing to deploy the CENTURION 2.0 engine.

In an interview with the magazine Aviation Week, Tim Owings, project manager for unmanned aircraft (UAVs) at the U.S. Army, expressed his deep satisfaction with CENTURION engines. In internal Army tests the engine proved that it is able to operate reliably at flight altitudes of up to 25,000 feet and even reaches flight altitudes of more than 30,000 feet. The engines have been flown a total of 6,000 hours without a single problem. The big driver across the board in terms of UAVs equipped with expensive technology is in-flight engine failures. “We’ve had zero,” Owings confided in Aviation Week.
In regards to use of their engines in General Aviation, Centurion states:
Altogether, more than 2,600 CENTURION 1.7 and 2.0 engines in operation in the area of general aviation have completed more than 1.7 million flying hours to date. The engines are employed in Cessna, Piper, Apex, Robin, and Diamond machines. Both civilian and military customers appreciate the reliability, range, the low consumption and minimal emissions offered by the engines. What is more, kerosene (Jet A) is low-priced and available worldwide. CENTURION has more than 300 service centers and thirty distributors on all of the important general aviation markets worldwide.
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Not only are Diesel Engines tested, trusted and reliable - they also offer the following advantages.

‣ Diesel Engines eliminate the dependance on Low-Lead fuels

‣ Switching to diesel fuel will allow general aviation aircraft to use commonly available diesel fuel instead of Avgas, which is an increasingly small percentage of the refined fuel market. In remote places Avgas is virtually impossible to find,though diesel fuel or Jet A may be readily available.

Jet A fuel which is cheaper the leaded AvGas can also be used in a Diesel Engine. Diesel Engines also show better performance with Jet A.

‣ Engineers also report on an increased time-before-overhaul (TBO).

Maintenance Costs are cut drastically since the Diesel Powerplant is much simpler than its combustion counterparts.

‣ Easy to operate - one power lever only. No mixture, no alternate air, no aux fuel pump, no magneto switches, no mandatory temperature, boost or power restrictions.move to single-lever controls from complex leaning systems, and give a power plant that runs smoother.

Environmentally progressive - low CO2 emissions due to low fuel consumption, low NOX due to two stroke principle, low soot and unburnt hydrocarbon emissions due to modern high pressure injection. Diesel and jet fuels contain no toxic substances like lead, benzene or scavengers. No fuel availability problem wordwide. Do I smell Green Tax Benefits for operators?

‣ No electromagnetic interference.

‣ High inflight reliability - no carburetor-icing, no magneto or spark-plug problems.

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Flight Schools - Harbingers of Change?

Where do flight schools fit into all of this. Well, flight schools have a bottom line too. But more importantly, they play a vital role in GA. A few erratic purchases of Diesel equipped aircraft by private owners will do nothing to bring down costs or encourage more people to take to the skies. Flight Schools are a unique position where they are large enough for small airplane manufacturers to listen to them, but small enough for them to play a vital role in influencing local small aircraft aviation.

For manufacturers like Diamond - who've made a killing, even cornered the market in small training aircraft around the world with the DA20 and DA40 series of aircraft - flight schools are their bread and butter. These manufacturers do listen to what flight schools have to say.

As of now, diesel engines - while perfectly capable, are not too common. Especially not in Canada. In the long run, cost-of-operation for flight schools will inevitable rise with the price of AvGas. In the meanwhile as aircraft retire, or FTU fleets expand - a lot of players in the market are looking into buying an upgrade to their Cessna 152s and 172s. While cheaper in the short run, I encourage you to think about Diesel - an option that will provide security for these businesses as prices rise in the future (I guarantee it) - not only terms of savings in terms of Fuel, but savings benefits from cost reductions in maintaning a much more mechanically simpler engine, not to mention potential Green, Environmentally friendly tax benefits (maybe?). It is also a matter of staying ahead of the competition - students will inevitably choose the cheaper option when provided with the same aircraft.

When I say all this, I realize that at this time Diesel Engine availability in Canada maybe very slim. But again, what we need is simply an expression of interest from a decent amount of people or FTUs for companies to start offering these solutions or at least testing the waters.

What does this do for GA? Flight Schools can provide a jump start for this availability of diesel powered aircraft, which in turn provides easy accessibility to products for private buyers. In the long run, more diesel aircraft equals cheaper, more affordable flying for the masses and eventually - a revival of the General Aviation era that everyone refers to as "The Good Ol' Days".

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For a whole bunch of information on Diesel Aviation Engine News ( I am not the author of the website, but I found a lot of great news aggregated on it), check out http://dieselair.com
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Re: Flight Training Businesses & The Diesel Engine

Post by Tango01 »

Its the other way around dude, americans have higher standards than we do.
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Re: Flight Training Businesses & The Diesel Engine

Post by per_aspera_ad_astra »

Its the other way around dude, americans have higher standards than we do.
I would say that this is arguable. I remember a friend of mine had told me that the FAA Written Exams are ridiculously easy, other simpler things are missing from their basic training - such as Spin Recovery training. Canada's vast uncontrolled airspace also improves a Pilots radio skills and decision making capabilities (as opposed to being watched over all the time in the States), it also improves Enroute procedure skills - students must learn to carry them out by themselves instead of being prodded regularly and reminded by controllers.

Of course, I'm sure that the FAA has its own benefits - but from my point of view - a Canadian License produces a much more "chiselled" pilot.
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Re: Flight Training Businesses & The Diesel Engine

Post by Cat Driver »

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Re: Flight Training Businesses & The Diesel Engine

Post by Strega »

In Canada,
we are all about paper and useless crap..

How many pilots in Canada know what a wing over or chandelle is?

A typically FAA new pilot is much more skillful than the northern counterparts..
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Re: Flight Training Businesses & The Diesel Engine

Post by North Shore »

^2,3,4,5 What do those have to do with Diesel engines?
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Re: Flight Training Businesses & The Diesel Engine

Post by Skyhunter »

So what do the last three post have to do with diesel engines? Any chance one of these threads could stay on topic?
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Re: Flight Training Businesses & The Diesel Engine

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

So far the light aircraft diesel story has been pretty ugly. The Theirlert disaster is going to give anyone thinking about a diesel engined training aircraft some serious concerns. I do not expect this technology will be widespread anytime soon, especially in North America.
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Re: Flight Training Businesses & The Diesel Engine

Post by Cat Driver »

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Re: Flight Training Businesses & The Diesel Engine

Post by moocow »

History lesson for the newbie please? As far as I can Google, the Thielert issue was basically a car engine adapted for GA use and it wasn't the most reliable. Then Thielert when Chapter 11 and parts & support died with it. Now Cat mentioned the aviation diesel haven't surprised av-gas engines but can you explain further.

PS: Sorry but the initial post sound like an ad out of a magazine. From my limited experience a Rotex DA20 A1 is still cheaper to rent than a Thielert C172R.
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Re: Flight Training Businesses & The Diesel Engine

Post by Hedley »

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Re: Flight Training Businesses & The Diesel Engine

Post by Shiny Side Up »

Personally I'm waiting for these to make a resurgence. :D
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Re: Flight Training Businesses & The Diesel Engine

Post by per_aspera_ad_astra »

CatDriver wrote:
With regard to the issue of Canadian training versus USA training and the diesel engine, per_aspera_ad_astra saw fit to make the claim that Canadian flight training is superior to training in the USA.
If you had taken the time to read, you would have noticed that I had also written the following:

per_aspera_ad_astra wrote:
I would say that this is arguable.
And:

per_aspera_ad_astra wrote:
Of course, I'm sure that the FAA has its own benefits - but from my point of view..
Unlike many online personae (every online forum must have its share), I do not claim to be a Instant Expert. However, based on what I've seen during the course of some of my close friends' training, and talking to quite a few people on their experiences during FAA training - I expressed my opinion.

I have seen far too many childish outbursts on forums to get into a juvenile argument over who is right. Like I said, I am sure that the FAA license and training has its own benefits.

Anyways, getting back on track to the Diesel Engine..

Moocow wrote:
Sorry but the initial post sound like an ad out of a magazine. From my limited experience a Rotex DA20 A1 is still cheaper to rent than a Thielert C172R.
I don't blame you. When I read the post after I was done writing it, I thought to myself, "I'm sure somebody is going to think I'm a Thielert Sales Rep."

I decided to make a more informed, academic post on the subject because I didn't want to spam this forum by making an idiotic post along the lines of " WHY DONT WE USE DIESEL ENGINES OMGLOLWTF."
History lesson for the newbie please?
Newbie, perhaps. But boasting of an outdated knowledge of History is laughable when you are unaware of Current Events:
In January 2009, Bruno M. Kubler, Thielert's insolvency administrator announced that the company was, "in the black and working to capacity". On 6 April 2009 the company announced that insolvency administrator Bruno M. Küblert had "transferred the company’s operative new business to a company that is unaffected by the insolvency proceedings". The new company Centurion Aircraft Engines is responsible for sales of Centurion diesel engines and spare parts, wordwide.
Sources
1. AVWeb:Thielert Recovering From Insolvency, Company Says http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/Th ... MP=OTC-RSS
2.http://www.centurion-engines.com/
3.Also seen on Wikipedia:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thielert

Futhermore, an August 2009 Press Release by the US Army shows that the company not only exists in the present Space-Time Continuum, but that it's doing quite well for itself : http://web.thielert.com/typo3/index.php ... s=1820&L=1

Big Pistons Forever wrote:
I do not expect this technology will be widespread anytime soon, especially in North America.
On the contrary, the diesel engine isn't doing too bad for itself. Sure, it is nowhere near in popularity to it's Gas counterparts but unsurprisingly, the Chinese Aviation market really seems to have no qualms about it:
Aug. 20, 2009
250TH CENTURION ENGINE IN 2009 GOES TO DIAMOND JOINT VENTURE IN CHINA

Lichtenstein/Saxony, August 20, 2009 – CENTURION has already manufactured a total of 250 engines for the year 2009. The 250th engine is intended for series production of a Diamond DA 40 in China. The engine is part of a package of OEM kits ordered by Shandong Bin Ao Aircraft Industries, the Chinese joint venture partner of Diamond.
..Like all newly manufactured CENTURION 2.0 engines they too are delivered with a two-year warranty from CENTURION.
(Source: Centurion Thielert Engines)

The Centurion 2.0 mentioned above is certified for the use of both kerosene and diesel (DIN EN590) and can run with the two fuels in any mixture ratio.

My point in the this thread was not that Flight School operators should wake up tomorrow and buy a Diesel Engined aircraft. In fact, something I am unsure about is how well diesel engines would operate in Extreme Cold Canadian Temperatures - so I too, have a few doubts.

The reason why I made this thread is because I believe the recent slump in General Aviation is not because people don't want to fly, but that they cannot afford to fly these outdated machines with outdated, uneconomical Powerplants. All airplanes are beautiful, but the time has come for an upgrade to the machines that have for decades introduced and "hooked" people to the addiction of flying.

I, personally believe that the diesel engine is capable of bringing about such a change.

I decided to write about the possibilities of a diesel solution when a flight school I know was considering of expanding its fleet and had a quite a few options in terms of training aircraft available to it to buy. Some of these aircraft even come with diesel powerplant options or retrofits, but nobody seemed to be talking about it.

For example the DA40 or DiamondStar is a popular aircraft with training schools, however, it is also quite expensive when compared to a traditional Cessna 152 II option. Imagine being able to provide a DA40 at a much cheaper cost. Not only would this be great in terms of the volume of business, but great for advantage over other training Ops. The Centurion 2.0 that was mentioned above is actually used in the DA40. Being able to provide a DA40, maybe even with a glass cockpit with better operating margins and lower costs for the customer? A WIN-WIN situation for both the customer and the company.

‣Better operating margins.

‣Cheaper costs for the customer.

‣Inherently simpler engine design.

‣Cheaper maintenance.

‣Less fuel consumption figures.

‣Engines with the flexibility of running Kerosene OR Diesel

‣Security from Volatile AvGas prices.

I'm not saying that this is the definite answer. I'm saying that it's worth looking into and worth discussing.
When an aviation slump occurs, Airlines are often bailed out. But flight schools are much more naked to tough economic times. The diesel engine provides more insulation to flight schools with its cheaper costs and flexible nature.
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Re: Flight Training Businesses & The Diesel Engine

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Re: Flight Training Businesses & The Diesel Engine

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

Cat Driver wrote:What would it cost to re-engine say a Cessna 172 with a diesel?

Incidentally the last company I worked with in Holland had a diesel powered Diamond twin in their flying school, it was not exactly successful.
I believe the C 172 conversion was briefly available, before the Therlert melt down. It was, I believe about $ 90,000 US.

per adua as aspera

The bottom line re training aircraft is quite simple. one new G100 DA 40 is about $ 290,000 USD. It will take the place of one $ 60,000 C 172. Since the purchase price is 3.5 times higher, insurance and loan/lease payments will also be approx 3.5 times higher. These cost will be significantly greater than the savings in fuel and must be passed to the student/renter. It will always be a premium product only a small part of the market will be willing to pay for. This will not change untill all the cheap American airplanes produced in the tens of thousands, are finally used up. This will not happen any time soon.
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Re: Flight Training Businesses & The Diesel Engine

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Re: Flight Training Businesses & The Diesel Engine

Post by aviation_tutor »

Cat's back in the flight training forums. WOW ! 8)
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Re: Flight Training Businesses & The Diesel Engine

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Re: Flight Training Businesses & The Diesel Engine

Post by per_aspera_ad_astra »

It will take the place of one $ 60,000 C 172. Since the purchase price is 3.5 times higher, insurance and loan/lease payments will also be approx 3.5 times higher.
..These cost will be significantly greater than the savings in fuel and must be passed to the student/renter. It will always be a premium product only a small part of the market will be willing to pay for.
..This will not change until all the cheap American airplanes produced in the tens of thousands, are finally used up. This will not happen any time soon.
I think I agree. The problem with the Diesel Engine option so far has been that if you're in the market for a DA40 fleet - the operating costs may be an advantage to go Diesel. However, as a single aircraft purchase - as a replacement for a for a 172 or otherwise does not make much sense.

Certain fleets in Canada - such as those that cater to the Chinese market (New Brunswick, I believe) are DA20/40 extensive.

I believe the C172 Retrofit option is up in the market again, which much makes much more sense than a Diamond purchase. But again, the risks associated with trying something new - especially in a cold climate where Lycomings and Continentals have proven themselves hardy and able prevents adoption.
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Re: Flight Training Businesses & The Diesel Engine

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