stall recovery

[ry6198]

What is the power on stall recovery if you have a wing drop?

lower nose, control wing drop with rudder(level wings) then add power(remaining power)?

lower nose, power idle, controll wing drop with rudder(level wings) then add power when wings level?

lower nose add power at the same time, control wing drop with rudder(level wings)?

[Lurch]

Depends on how bad of wing drop you get.

Treat it like a spin recovery

Power idle
Lower nose
Control nose with rudder (level wings)
Full power
Ease out of the dive

[loopa]

Either the above, or follow the procedures in your AFM/POF.

If you fly the 172 there's a section designed primarily for incipient spin recovery.

[mcrit]

It depends on how quickly the wing is dropping. If you are quick to unload the back pressure and get opposite rudder in you should be able to prevent the spin and keep the power on (which means less altitude loss). What I do in the 172 is unload the back pressure and get the rudder in. If the nose is still moving (pro spin) once I've got full rudder in then I'll cut the power.

[old_man]

The way I have always looked at it when it came to rudder use was that the rudder was used to stop the rotation (wing dropping) not to level the wings. That is if you need to. As soon as you unload (release back pressure) you shouldn't spin.

Pressure: Release back pressure
Power: Balls to the wall
Rudder: Apply right rudder to counteract the full throttle
Level: Level the wings with aileron
Climb: Start climbing at your best rate.

Anyways, this is my take on it.

[Dagwood]

Not answering your question here, but some advice:

A lot of students are wary of using rudder in a stall situation. They think "Stall + Rudder = Spin". This is not always the case. In the 172, usually the left wing drops in a power-on stall, so it takes right rudder. The airplane won't spin in this case for 2 reasons: (1)You are already recovering from the stall (the airplane won't spin if it isn't stalled) and (2) you are applying opposite rudder to the wing drop.

The best way to correct a wing drop in a stall is to not have one in the first place. Use the rudder on the entry to keep the wings level. Many students do not use the rudder like they could/should. If you do get a wing drop, don't be shy with the rudder... it often takes full rudder deflection to bring the wing up.

[paydaymayday]

1) Don't get there in the first place. This won't help with the exercise, I realize, but it means a lot in real life. Learn to feel what the plane is desperately trying to tell you through your butt and control pressures. Your ass cheeks will tell you volumes.

2) If it is a bad wing drop, pull the power off for the initial part of a recovery. Sure, a 172 can recover from a wing drop with power on, but you won't always be flying a 172 - that thing is more forgiving than a pregnant yak. You don't need to do this unless in more extreme cases, so... know your plane. Know it well.

3) Push push push. Pop quiz: what's an aircraft's stalling speed at zero G?

4) Use rudder to level the wings. Make sure you know why. An aircraft will not spin when lift is equal on both wings. If you're VFR (which you will be in training), keep your eyes outside. You should be able to see the slightest yaw.

5) Add power again. You should only have had it off for a very short time. You are no longer stalled, and no longer yawing, so you will definitely not spin. Pull up but avoid a secondary stall. With any luck you lost no more than 20 feet.

Protip: the differential ailerons in most Cessna singles are differential to the point where you can actually use them to recover from a spin when it is not accelerated or flat. Don't do this just because it works... it is a terrible habit to form that will kill you in almost any other aircraft. Use rudder.

[cgzro]

My natural reaction now is if there is any yaw get the power off and rudder in at the same time.

Answer to pop quiz. 0 G stall speed is infinity.

Pop quizz. Whats your 0 G usable fuel ?

[paydaymayday]

My natural reaction now is if there is any yaw get the power off and rudder in at the same time.

Answer to pop quiz. 0 G stall speed is infinity.

Pop quizz. Whats your 0 G usable fuel ?

That's why I said to get the power off, especially in less forgiving aircraft such as your Pitts.

Zero G stall speed is actually undefined, which in a practical sense is zero.

Zero G usable fuel in most non-aerobatics aircraft is not really an issue, because starvation will happen long after you have recovered.

[Big Pistons Forever]

If the aircraft is prevented from Yawing than it cannot spin, even if it is stalled. I demonstrte this by doing a power off stall and then instead of recovering hold the stick fully back. The aircraft will try to break to one side or the other but prompt application of full rudder will arrest the Yaw and prevent the incipient spin from developing. This is also a good exercise because it will probably be the first time a student has applied full rudder travel in flight and emphasizes the importance of quickly cancelling the Yaw. If the student is slow getting the rudder in than the yawing forces will exceed the rudder authority available and the aircraft will Yaw/Roll/Spin.

[cgzro]

My natural reaction now is if there is any yaw get the power off and rudder in at the same time.

Answer to pop quiz. 0 G stall speed is infinity.

Pop quizz. Whats your 0 G usable fuel ?

That's why I said to get the power off, especially in less forgiving aircraft such as your Pitts.

Zero G stall speed is actually undefined, which in a practical sense is zero.

Zero G usable fuel in most non-aerobatics aircraft is not really an issue, because starvation will happen long after you have recovered.

[cgzro]

If the aircraft is prevented from Yawing than it cannot spin, even if it is stalled. I demonstrte this by doing a power off stall and then instead of recovering hold the stick fully back. The aircraft will try to break to one side or the other but prompt application of full rudder will arrest the Yaw and prevent the incipient spin from developing. This is also a good exercise because it will probably be the first time a student has applied full rudder travel in flight and emphasizes the importance of quickly cancelling the Yaw. If the student is slow getting the rudder in than the yawing forces will exceed the rudder authority available and the aircraft will Yaw/Roll/Spin.

Yes, we call that the falling leaf excercise. Full stall, moderate power and just let a wing drop, catch it, drop the other, catch it, repeat. Its a great way to learn rudder control to prevent spin entry. Its also interesting to do the same thing but fix the rudder so there is no yaw .. then input aileron, you can do the same thing, force a wing drop etc. but of course the ailerons may be reversed .. another good lesson on why not to lift a wing with ailerons when you are stalled.

[Bede]

For a stall recovery, yo add full power. For a spin it's power idle. So when does a stall with a wing drop become a spin?? A: When the wing has dropped 90 degrees.

[Lurch]

For a stall recovery, yo add full power. For a spin it's power idle. So when does a stall with a wing drop become a spin?? A: When the wing has dropped 90 degrees.

Where did you get this from?

I have done a lot of spins and not once did the wing drop 90 degrees

Lurch

[looproll]

For a stall recovery, yo add full power. For a spin it's power idle. So when does a stall with a wing drop become a spin?? A: When the wing has dropped 90 degrees.

Where did you get this from?

I have done a lot of spins and not once did the wing drop 90 degrees

Lurch

I agree with Lurch


never done or heard of a flat spin, Bede?

[Bede]

For a stall recovery, yo add full power. For a spin it's power idle. So when does a stall with a wing drop become a spin?? A: When the wing has dropped 90 degrees.

Where did you get this from?

I have done a lot of spins and not once did the wing drop 90 degrees

Lurch

I agree with Lurch


never done or heard of a flat spin, Bede?

What's a flat spin?

Anyways, the OP was asking when to add power or cut power. I have always taught when the wing goes past 90 or the plane has yawed 90 degrees, you need to do a spin recovery. This is a simple answer to a student. Anyone have any better answers??

[FlaplessDork]

Depend

I have always taught when the wing goes past 90 or the plane has yawed 90 degrees, you need to do a spin recovery. This is a simple answer to a student. Anyone have any better answers??

Ask yourself why we reduce power in a spin, and you'll have your answer.

[AEROBAT]

Lower the nose, keep wings level with RUDDER, full power.
As far as comparing power on stalls with a spin, remember you cannot spin without adverse yaw. You can spin a plane in straight and level flight without losing hardly any alt. before recovery. I do it all the time. It is called a snap roll. You can leave power on through out the manouver as well.

[5x5]

This is a simple answer to a student. Anyone have any better answers??

First of all, while it may sound simple, I can't and I don't think any of my students can easily or readily determine what 90 degrees of wing drop would look like.

However, a possible better answer, is prior to stall recovery being initiated, once the nose has dropped through the horizon - power off and spin recovery. Even I can see when the nose goes through the horizon.

When prompt opposite rudder is employed and stops the wing drop, the nose will still be above the horizon and then it's on to normal stall recovery.

Works for me.

[Bede]

5x5,

I like your answer and in a spin, it happens about the same time as my suggestion. However, lets say we have a full power stall and a wing drops, let's say 45 degrees, the nose will go below the horizon, but if we're on the rudder and stop the wing from dropping more, I would still leave full power on to recover from the stall.

[cgzro]

Simple rules are probably safest. My advice to anybody would be if they are unsure just pull the power. If you are going to make a mistake, its safer to be stalled with the power off, than spinning with the power on.

Peter

[loopa]

Simple rules are probably safest. My advice to anybody would be if they are unsure just pull the power. If you are going to make a mistake, its safer to be stalled with the power off, than spinning with the power on.

Peter

Not if you're at 300 feet after take off in IMC.

[trampbike]

Pop quiz: what's an aircraft's stalling speed at zero G?

Another pop quiz: What is your stall speed at the maximum g-load your aircraft was certified for (ex: 3.8g for normal category)?

Sadly, there are way too many instructors that can't answer correctly to that basic question

[MichaelP]

True, but they can all look it up such as here:
http://www.auf.asn.au/groundschool/umodule2.html#stall

It seems the Aussies have some good information on their sites, probably because they are real enthusiasts.

Do we need to know absolutes? Or simply have the sense of things?

There's need to know: Pilot
There's the desire to know more: Enthusiast.
There's the desire to know combined with understanding: Aviator.
There's the desire to know, understanding, and the ability to pass it on: True Instructor.

[767]

Step 1: Full opposite rudder (effectivness reduces as airspeed reduces, minimize the wing drop)

step 2: Full power ( makes rudder more effective and helps reduce the rate of descent)

step 3: lower the nose to unstall

step 1 and 2 can be reveresed if you wish. Lowering the nose should be done after power is added.