To all future pilots ready to start flight school....

[magyar]

o what a difference it would make to not whore yourself out after flight school. ACTUALLY this just gave me an idea we should make some kind of poster that we could put up at all flight training school across canada, something of an image or statement that says, hey you just paid 40,000 to be a pilot!, think twice before becomming a pilot whore and you will change the standards of entry-leval job circumstances nationwide!... i think we need to educate the eager beavers that are willing to do anything for a first job, it starts at flight school beacuse people i feel have a false idea about that first job. they may think oh my 747 here i come!! but if we educate them with the reality that awaits than i am almost positive people would think twice about working for free or working for peanuts on the ramp with no guaruntees.

[5x5]

Interesting idea. But there are a few basic assumptions that I'm not sure about.

it starts at flight school beacuse people i feel have a false idea about that first job

Where does this notion come from? Certainly I don't see that with any of the students I deal with and any of the other schools I talk with make a point of making sure potential students know that initially, it's a tough row to hoe. Certainly most students are frustrated when they get near the end of their training as we would all like to make more money. And it's different when the reality is staring them in the face as it seemed when they started training and it was quite a ways off. But they are all aware of what they're getting into.

If there are schools out there that misrepresent the industry, that's very unscrupulous but shouldn't lead to the much too frequent comments that paint all schools with the same brush.

think twice before becomming a pilot whore and you will change the standards of entry-leval job circumstances nationwide!

Perhaps, but the aviation industry is a strange one. The small operators who have the entry level jobs are companies with high capital and operating costs and a market that is fairly inelastic - can't expand the customer base easily and don't have much leeway on pricing. As a result, they tend to be relatively low margin ventures. Should one of the significant costs change rapidly - be it labour, fuel, financing, whatever - then it can be tough to keep operating profitably.

So if something like you suggest could be accomplished, then it's likely you'd see some, possibly quite a few, operators fail and there would be a resultant loss of jobs. This would lead to a re-factoring in the industry and there would be fewer flight schools/charter companies. Prices would go up to passengers and that would mean less demand and further contraction.

Not sure that would make things a whole better, certainly different, but not necessarily better.

[Tango01]

o what a difference it would make to not whore yourself out after flight school. ACTUALLY this just gave me an idea we should make some kind of poster that we could put up at all flight training school across canada, something of an image or statement that says, hey you just paid 40,000 to be a pilot!, think twice before becomming a pilot whore and you will change the standards of entry-leval job circumstances nationwide!... i think we need to educate the eager beavers that are willing to do anything for a first job, it starts at flight school beacuse people i feel have a false idea about that first job. they may think oh my 747 here i come!! but if we educate them with the reality that awaits than i am almost positive people would think twice about working for free or working for peanuts on the ramp with no guaruntees.

+1

As for the other poster, too many fancy words to cover up the sad truth.

[pika]

Putting up posters at flight schools that are telling students the great pilot shortage is just around the corner as they attempt to extract every last dollar from said student's pockets might be a challenge.

The plan also sounds a bit like a union feeding on it's young. The onus is now on the youngest most inexperienced people in the industry to clean it up?

[loopa]

In my opinion, Europe's got it right. I also come to believe that the problem doesn't sit with the flight schools, but the governing agency that runs aviation in Canada - flight training being one of its epsilons.

[Cisbour]

To Loopa:

comparing things to europe is a something I don't wanna hear anymore. I'm french and got licences in France, finished my course in june. And I'm in Canada now, through the FI rating. Why am I here? simply to avoid the dreadful jobmarket back in europe.
Somebody right here was talking about 40000 bucks. So what? In europe it takes even more like 50000 euros, not to compare to CAD$ it would be meaningless but for the figures it comes around 78000 $. Once again, it's meaningless to compare. So u guys gradute with a CPL and M-IFR right? And that "should" be enough to give an entry job with these ratings, regardless of hours requirements.
In Europe you need a MCC or multi crew cooperation rating before even anpplying. So you can add 5000 $ again. But that won't give you the job...Do you realize that in Europe most of the time you have to pay for a type rating before being sure of being employed? and for most of these jobs, that comes along with poor salaries compared to the 80-100k euros ( 150k $) u pulled into your training. So please guys stop complaining and sayng that the grass is greener in Europe. It simply is not.

The advantage you guys have but you don't seem to be aware of it is the large panel of aviation jobs at first level. Instructing, aerial work sometimes of others. In France it's: you have a 320 Type rating you may apply, or else that an instructing job, if you're lucky you'll gt paid, if you're teaching PPL, only 50 % of FI get paid.

Now for people talking about the poster. Each person who is wiling to get a commercial training should be aware of the job market. It simply makes no sense to put that money if you can't even see through your windshield. It's up to the student to think about it. Don't ask the flight shools and their instructors to kil their jobs..remember they're pilots too. As for the low leve entry jobs salaries, it's just because this job is a job a lot of people would to love to have, even if it's 40% of an office paid job. The salaries are like due to unequal suplly and demand. Not due to so called whore spirit.

sorry for the english mistakes, just my 2 cents.

[Tango01]

To Loopa:

comparing things to europe is a something I don't wanna hear anymore. I'm french and got licences in France, finished my course in june. And I'm in Canada now, through the FI rating. Why am I here? simply to avoid the dreadful jobmarket back in europe.
Somebody right here was talking about 40000 bucks. So what? In europe it takes even more like 50000 euros, not to compare to CAD$ it would be meaningless but for the figures it comes around 78000 $. Once again, it's meaningless to compare. So u guys gradute with a CPL and M-IFR right? And that "should" be enough to give an entry job with these ratings, regardless of hours requirements.
In Europe you need a MCC or multi crew cooperation rating before even anpplying. So you can add 5000 $ again. But that won't give you the job...Do you realize that in Europe most of the time you have to pay for a type rating before being sure of being employed? and for most of these jobs, that comes along with poor salaries compared to the 80-100k euros ( 150k $) u pulled into your training. So please guys stop complaining and sayng that the grass is greener in Europe. It simply is not.

The advantage you guys have but you don't seem to be aware of it is the large panel of aviation jobs at first level. Instructing, aerial work sometimes of others. In France it's: you have a 320 Type rating you may apply, or else that an instructing job, if you're lucky you'll gt paid, if you're teaching PPL, only 50 % of FI get paid.

Now for people talking about the poster. Each person who is wiling to get a commercial training should be aware of the job market. It simply makes no sense to put that money if you can't even see through your windshield. It's up to the student to think about it. Don't ask the flight shools and their instructors to kil their jobs..remember they're pilots too. As for the low leve entry jobs salaries, it's just because this job is a job a lot of people would to love to have, even if it's 40% of an office paid job. The salaries are like due to unequal suplly and demand. Not due to so called whore spirit.

sorry for the english mistakes, just my 2 cents.

Somebody call 911, this guy is on fire!

[Oor Wullie]

tango01, you just agreed with magyar....and now you agree with Cisbour. Now THAT'S what I call whoring yourself out.

Everybody is a economy expert. I'll say to you, what I say to ALL my pax's.....SIT DOWN, SHUT UP, AND HOLD YOUR F*ING NUTS.

Enjoy the tsunami we call aviation.

[Tango01]

tango01, you just agreed with magyar....and now you agree with Cisbour. Now THAT'S what I call whoring yourself out.

Everybody is a economy expert. I'll say to you, what I say to ALL my pax's.....SIT DOWN, SHUT UP, AND HOLD YOUR F*ING NUTS.

Enjoy the tsunami we call aviation.

I did not agree with Cisbour, at least not my intentions, maybe came out wrong? If I was a whore like you claim, I would be working for free, doing carrot dangling ramp jobs and undercutting people or would have bought myself a PPC or type rating. I did not do that. If you call that a whore, you must be a virgin!

[ScudRunner]

Too improve the industry and attract the best a brightest you need to make it far more difficult to get a commercial pilots licence. Currently you just need money and about a year to get your licence, other professions that people like to compare being a pilot to such as doctor and lawyer which makes me laugh have far tougher entrance requirements just to try and start on the road to that profession .

I started a thread about such things awhile back in the employment forum.

Lawyer - 4 year degree plus the LSAT just to start.
Doctor - MCAT and a Science based degree.
Pilot - Money, 1 year and basic motor and reasoning skills.


So what should happen is to get into a CPL program or start your Commercial training we need a MCAT or LSAT type entrance exam. Three exam sittings a year you fail well tough cookie you can try again in four months , make it 200 questions long give them 3 hours and a pass of 90%.

What this will do is weed out the slackers and making it more difficult to become a pilot, thus creating fewer pilots for the market and driving wages up.


And first of all do you really think any school will let you dangle a poster up in their school saying that, thats just not good for business.

[loopa]

Exactly what .. said... and is it a surprise why our system is not of high standard in Canada? No it's not...

I'll let the more politically educated people discuss why it is the way it is.

[magyar]

.,

I actually like where you are heading with your thoughts. This may very well be a factor in the vast number of pilots we have. If it is more a selective process like you mention than it would no longer matter if your dad works at air canada...etc You would fall into an equal pool that would like you mentioned select people based more on knowledge and desire vs. a person who has the access to cash but...
It would make people deeply consider if this is what they want to do. People truly have to care about what they are getting into and a more strict selctive process would allow people to show just that.

[Ville]

Do employers actually look at any of your results from your tests etc. when you are getting job?

[The Old Fogducker]

"Back in the day" when I was still hiring pilots, I looked at their exam results and questioned them on what materials they used to study for the exams too ... ranking lowest was "I took a 3 day course and then wrote the next day and passed."

Ranking highest was someone who could list their study books and talk about which sections were most interesting to them, which ones were the most difficult to grasp and why.

The whole topic of "There's just too many new pilots out there each year, and they are screwing up the business" has been around for many, many decades, so don't think this is something that just happened in the last 5 years.

If we were a Communist country with a strong-arm central planning government that operated on 5 year plans, we could just close down all of the current flying schools and have only maybe 2 or 3 max to serve the needs of the country. Just to clear off some of the current backlog, how about if we just don't train anybody at all for maybe ... oh, lets say 7 years. That should ensure there is a real healthy labour shortage and those left standing should be able to make a good living.

Great idea isn't it?

The Old Fogducker

[Bushav8er]

"Back in the day" when I was still hiring pilots, I looked at their exam results and questioned them on what materials they used to study for the exams too ... ranking lowest was "I took a 3 day course and then wrote the next day and passed."

Ranking highest was someone who could list their study books and talk about which sections were most interesting to them, which ones were the most difficult to grasp and why.

I like that.

If we were a Communist country with a strong-arm central planning government that operated on 5 year plans, we could just close down all of the current flying schools and have only maybe 2 or 3 max to serve the needs of the country. Just to clear off some of the current backlog, how about if we just don't train anybody at all for maybe ... oh, lets say 7 years. That should ensure there is a real healthy labour shortage and those left standing should be able to make a good living.

Great idea isn't it?

I like that too, not the Communist part. Old Story - supply and demand. We keep pumping out pilots (supply) when there are few jobs (demand). We should put the brakes on the training and only 'supply' when needed - that has the additional effect of keeping wages where they should be too. I think the "College of Pilots" has this thought in mind.

[C-GGGQ]

OFD, have the rules changed? Cause I know that now employers, or anyone for that matter are not allowed to ask for your test results.

[The Old Fogducker]

Why not ask the applicant for his test results? If I ask and he or she refuses to tell me during an interview, that says something to me right away about their personal suitability and perhaps professional status too.

I'm now well into semi-retirement and no longer hire people directly, but am often asked my opinion on HR matters on a consultant basis.

I always looked for that young person who built model airplanes as a kid, read about WW2 aircraft development and aviation history, rode his bike 10 miles to the nearest airport and begged airplane rides while working 4 jobs to pay for flying training, and ate and slept airplanes ... in other words, a clone of The Old Fogducker. Fortunately, I was able to find them quite often, and retain them on staff until they moved up the ladder of equipment into major airlines or business aviation.

Sometimes I had an opening and had to accept someone who only looked at it as a job, like driving a forklift or a delivery van for a auto parts retailer, but generally, I was able to maintain a very good "operational unit" of like-minded people in the company, and to look at them now, the vast majority are well-placed in the industry in leadership positions.

Only once or twice did I make the mistake of hiring someone who had only studied enough to pass an exam and fly well enough to squeeze through an IFR or CPL ride. They were out of place in the organization and soon left of their own accord because they knew they weren't meeting the expectations of everyone else around them.

Sort of not unlike a new guy joining a fighter squadron that knew from his first couple of missions he wasn't going to make it through his first real dogfight.

OFD

[Lurch]

. I think you are right in thinking we have to make this process harder, but I think you are completely off when you think written exams are the answer.

As much as we like to make others believe otherwise, it doesn't take much brain power at all to be a pilot.

I have seen more then my fair share of "Smart" Pilots, able to regurgitate info on any of the 100 books they have read, but stick them into an airplane and they will scare you. Couldn't fly themselves out of a wet paper bag.

You're are right, comparing pilots to Doctors and Lawyers is laughable. I hate to say this but we are just a bunch of glorified bus drivers.

We need to increase the requirement levels for the CPL but through tougher flight training and flight testing not meaningless entrance exams.

Lurch

[Cat Driver]

I have seen more then my fair share of "Smart" Pilots, able to regurgitate info on any of the 100 books they have read, but stick them into an airplane and they will scare you. Couldn't fly themselves out of a wet paper bag.

You're are right, comparing pilots to Doctors and Lawyers is laughable. I hate to say this but we are just a bunch of glorified bus drivers.

We need to increase the requirement levels for the CPL but through tougher flight training and flight testing not meaningless entrance exams.

Lurch

How true...well said.

[ETOPS]

We need to increase the requirement levels for the CPL but through tougher flight training and flight testing not meaningless entrance exams.

Throw in a 4 year Engineering degree - preferably aerospace or mech and definitely excluding that 'Fnet = 0' stuff - while you're at it and we'd be well on our way.