spinning

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Benwa
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Re: spinning

Post by Benwa » Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:46 pm

AuxBatOn wrote:flown at Vx (best rate).
Vx is best angle of climb...not best rate.

I don't know a lot of people that climb at Vx... poor engine cooling, poor visibility, poor rate of climb...
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Re: spinning

Post by MichaelP » Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:48 pm

How many impressionable people reading this forum might attempt the turn because AuxBat can do it and die doing it?

It's why I write: "..be very very careful on this one".

As instructors we have to take responsibility for the information we provide.
If you are willing to stand by what you write, are prepared to see someone execute such an action following an engine failure after takeoff, then it is up to you.

I for one can never advocate someone calculating an ideal and being prepared to go against proven training as an SOP.
Engine failure after takeoff, lower the nose first and then consider your options.
Like the ace of the base who loops his aeroplane into a spectacular crash at the airshow, that extra little pull on the stick can mean disaster whereas the calculated ideal, practiced with a good engine on a nice day might not.
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Re: spinning

Post by AuxBatOn » Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:49 pm

Big Pistons Forever wrote: It doesn't matter if you can do the turn back at 350 AAE, what matters can every civil PPL student do it everytime. I am positive that every one of my students, on their worst day, could manage a safe landing straight ahead (with a + - 30 deg turn to avoid obstacles) below 1000 AAE and can safely turn back above 1000 AAE, that's why I teach the 1000ft mark as the decision altitude. The accident statistics are pretty clear, the turn back manoever after a real engine failure seems to come out two ways, it is either successfull of there is a big hole full of dead people.
Just like initially you cannot make a PFL every time, with practice it comes. Same with this. If this was taught and practiced, I have no doubt anybody could do it, most of the time.

If the turn back manoever result in crashes, is most likely because it is not taught or practiced by pilots. If it was, I'd like to see that stat again.
Big Pistons Forever wrote:BTW have you ever instructed for the civil PPL ? Instructing for the air force means you are teaching the cream of the crop in avery controlled environment. Regretably these advantages do not exis in civil instructing and so I feel some extra margin has to be allowed for civil instructing
I have never instructed. Period. I am not debating how you should teach it, but just pointing out I think it should be taught. For that, you don't need to be an instructor. I came to the conclusion that it is an other viable option in a situation when already you are limited with options, with my experience both civilian and military. Remove that big nice field 2 miles from the departure end of the runway and replace it with trees, you suddenly don't have many options. Having more options for you to use is never a bad thing.

Benwa: my bad, I swap Vy for Vx and Vx for Vy. Brain fart... Best rate is what I meant.
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Re: spinning

Post by AEROBAT » Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:50 pm

Benwa wrote:
AuxBatOn wrote:flown at Vx (best rate).
Vx is best angle of climb...not best rate.

I don't know a lot of people that climb at Vx... poor engine cooling, poor visibility, poor rate of climb...
I wondered if anyone was going to notice that. Good catch.
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Re: spinning

Post by Big Pistons Forever » Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:53 pm

Auxbaton

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one as there is no way I can be convinced that it would be a good idea to have PPL's think a turn back manoever from 350 AAE is a good idea under any circumstances.
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Re: spinning

Post by MichaelP » Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:54 pm

Cat noticed it and posed the question on the Two week thread.

If I was low and faced with trees I would still go ahead.
Many many people have died turning back for this.
It is always better to crash while still in control of the aircraft.
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Re: spinning

Post by MichaelP » Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:55 pm

Hot topic isn't it!

Take responsibility for what you write.
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Re: spinning

Post by AuxBatOn » Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:56 pm

MichaelP wrote:How many impressionable people reading this forum might attempt the turn because AuxBat can do it and die doing it?
I never advocated doing it by yourself the first time at 300'. Remember, I did this at altitude first, trying to figure out how much I was going to lose in the turn and how to make the turn, then tried it with someone else watching my flying.

BPF, sure we'll have to disagree on that one, and that's fine. I'm just exposing my experience with it. And to me, it's no different than the final 180 degree turn in an orbit PFL.
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MichaelP
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Re: spinning

Post by MichaelP » Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:59 pm

it's no different than the final 180 degree turn in an orbit PFL.
It's totally different because by this time in a forced landing scenario you are no longer surprised.

Leave a BIG margin for error please, 350 has no margin... 600 feet maybe on a calm day.
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Re: spinning

Post by AuxBatOn » Sun Jan 03, 2010 6:04 pm

MichaelP wrote:It's totally different because by this time in a forced landing scenario you are no longer surprised.

Leave a BIG margin for error please, 350 has no margin... 600 feet maybe on a calm day.
That's why I 'spring load' myself to a reaction in case something happens. No trying to troubleshoot, no trying to figure out what I'm gonna do. My decisions are taken before I even step in the airplane. It's part of my pre-flight routine and should be, in my mind, part of everyone's pre-flight routine.
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MichaelP
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Re: spinning

Post by MichaelP » Sun Jan 03, 2010 6:10 pm

It's part of my pre-flight routine and should be, in my mind, part of everyone's pre-flight routine.
Agreed.
It's why we do a takeoff safety briefing, engine failure on runway, with runway remaining, with no runway remaining... So our rabbit brain makes us do what we should do rather than having no plan and running across the road infront of a car so to speak.

Such a brief with 'engine failure at 350 feet: turn back' will lead most people to disaster though.

First should be control of the aircraft, lower the nose STRAIGHT AHEAD, then consider whether you have enough height to turn back.

Sorry but I think this is a safety issue that cannot be OVER STATED. Be very very careful what you write or pose to others, someone will listen and die because he/she is not as good a pilot as you are.
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Re: spinning

Post by star57 » Sun Jan 03, 2010 7:13 pm

Tango01 wrote:Make sure you stall it first. I used to spin the C172R with 1800 rpm at least. Get that rudder in fully and hold it. It doesn't like to spin.

Fogett about it....try it ona Cirrus SR22, that will be an experience of a lifetime :lol:
on a more serious note, stall it first and full rudder to the left...dont forget the 3000feet AGL
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Re: spinning

Post by Shiny Side Up » Mon Jan 04, 2010 1:21 pm

Just like initially you cannot make a PFL every time, with practice it comes. Same with this. If this was taught and practiced, I have no doubt anybody could do it, most of the time.

If the turn back manoever result in crashes, is most likely because it is not taught or practiced by pilots. If it was, I'd like to see that stat again
I totally disagree with this, there's a reason its not taught and not practiced - It doesn't work in a majority of the scenarios.Flyinthebug makes a compelling arguement against such training in this thread. Keep in mind that the idea of teaching it to students beyond the PPL introduces a bad practice especially when that pilot is more likely to be flying aircraft which won't make the glide back to the field. Our basic 150 or 172 might make that glide back a 172XP for instance won't - an extra 50 or so odd pounds of engine weight forward of the firewall really makes the difference on that glide angle. Larger singles - like the 206 and Saratoga have terrible turning radii to make the turn and once again ain't going to make it. Light twins, should you have that bad day of bad days and have both quit on you, present an even worse case scenario - Refer to Hedley's tale of two commanches. Should you be flying something larger - ask yourself "What would Sully do?"


That's going towards the larger end of the scale on the smaller end of the scale - or equal end if you were flying a cub what would you do? I don't know about you, but in that case any open patch ahead will suffice, so why think about turning back?
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Re: spinning

Post by iflyforpie » Mon Jan 04, 2010 2:50 pm

WRT turning back to the field.

I was taught it by an air force type soon after becoming a CPL. 400ft, cut the engine, turn back.

The demonstration was a failure. Overshoot of all things! (15kts down the pipe, Cessna 172, 6000 ft of runway). My attempt was better, though I got a bit slower in the first turn. Managed to flat land it in the remaining 2000 ft.

Then I did it in real life. Lost engine power in the 206 at just under 400ft. High DA, light wind (<5), full fuel but only me on board.

I can't even remember what I did. I figure I was between 45 and 60 degrees of bank on the initial turn (to the left of course). I didn't do anything to the engine other than shove everything to the firewall. The stall horn went on about 90 degrees into the turn so I relaxed back pressure and extended flaps. I snapped the plane the other way to line up with the runway, which was a pleasant surprise because I didn't think I would make it that far. The wingtip seemed like it was going to touch when I rolled level and I used my last inch of rudder authority (fwd C of G) to make one of the most perfect landings I've ever made.

Post flight thoughts? How stupid I was for turning back when there were plenty of fields straight ahead. How lucky I was that there was nobody else in the aircraft with me. How STOL kits are wonderful things.

I was thankful for the training, which kept me alive and from pulling back no matter how ugly the ground looked, but probably took me to places I shouldn't have been in the first place.

I do a practice return to the field from 400 ft with a two second delay each year during company training. My batting average is about 0.50.
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Re: spinning

Post by MichaelP » Mon Jan 04, 2010 5:10 pm

I do a practice return to the field from 400 ft with a two second delay each year during company training. My batting average is about 0.50.
I think that such a practice is probably as dangerous as practicing a spin from 800 feet or even perhaps 500 feet so that you'll have the skill to do it in an emergency.

I could understand practicing these things with height to spare like say at 1,000 feet for the turn back but at 400 feet???
This whole thread is incredible!
At least I presume the aeroplane is light when you did these nutcase things... Such proficiency and practice though will kill you and your passengers when the aeroplane is loaded.

We practice many things to have instant automatic reactions.
If the circumstances are not the same as when we practiced, i.e. the aeroplane is loaded, the density altitude is different, we didn't eat breakfast, then such automatic reactions will kill us!

I reiterate, the most important thing to do if we have loss of power after takeoff is lower the nose to the glide attitude straight ahead. Retain control of the aircraft and decide what you are going to do from there.
If you have it in your mind to turn back, or your mind is primed through such practice as above, then in a real situation you'll come as close to death as Iflyforpie apparently did in his Cessna 206 at the very least, and if you are not as good a pilot as he is you'll probably die.
Always have it in mind to lower the nose straight ahead and then work it out from there.
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Tango01
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Re: spinning

Post by Tango01 » Mon Jan 04, 2010 5:41 pm

http://nhwgcap.org/_safe2/index.php?opt ... 36:general


Engine Failure on Takeoff – Turn Back or Land Straight Ahead?



A lot has been written about this question: what should I do if I have an engine failure at low altitude during takeoff? If you ask several pilots, you will likely get equally strong but varying opinions. However, the majority view seems to favor the “land ahead” alternative, and probably with good justification considering the following.



- After becoming aware of the engine failure, studies indicate most people take about four seconds to react. How much airspeed and altitude would that cost you?

- You will really have to push hard nose over to regain airspeed, probably more than you’d think. And if you’ve been holding right rudder to offset p factor, quickly neutralize the rudder to avoid a spin.

- If you elect to turn back, it won’t be just a 180 degree turn to line up with the runway, but maybe more like 270 degrees. And do you remember the wind direction, so you will turn into the wind?

- If you hit the ground wings-level and at the slowest possible speed, you have a good chance of walking away from the scene. If you stall/spin the airplane you have a high probability of being killed.

- In attempting a turnback, a 30 degree bank at just above stall speed (the stall warning horn may be chirping at you, but not blaring) is probably the best tradeoff between minimizing turn radius and safe execution. Can you do this under stress?

- If you successfully execute a turn, remember that you now will be landing with a tail wind, thereby increasing the speed and potential impact energy.

- A Canadian study reported that if an engine failure occurs, the pilot is about eight times as likely to be killed in a turnback vs. landing straight ahead.

Obviously, an engine failure at 1,000 ft. AGL is a different challenge than one at 600 ft. AGL, and may justify a different decision. But another big factor is individual pilot skill. A good way to assess your ability would be to go out and do some practices with another pilot or instructor (so you don’t know when the power will be chopped), at least 3,500 – 4,000 ft. AGL, and see how long it takes you to react and how much altitude you lose in completing a 180 degree+ turn. This will give you a better idea of what might be a minimum decision height before you attempt a turnback if the engine quits.

So prior to taking the runway for departure, know where the potential off-field landing sites are if you elect to continue straight ahead or slightly right or left if the engine fails. And remember the wind direction and therefore which way you’ll head if you reach the minimum altitude you’ve established before attempting to turn back. Including these items as part of the pre-takeoff briefing will help both you and your crew know what to do/expect if the rainy day scenario happens.

Safe flying!

Carroll Bewley
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Re: spinning

Post by Cat Driver » Mon Jan 04, 2010 6:36 pm

This subject MUST be better understood because there is a distinct possibility that some pilots just might believe that a turn back to a runway at low altitude after an engine failure is a safe manouver.

I will once again point out that I have a lot of low level flying experience including eight years aerial application, fifteen years as captain on heavy water bombers and held an unrestricted airdisplay authority for eight years in Europe flying in the air show circuit.

A turn back to the runway after an engine failure would be the last resort in my mind and only attempted if I were 100% sure I had the height and airspeed to complete the manoeuvre.

For low time pilots or pilots who are out of practice the idea is a recipe for death.
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Re: spinning

Post by Old Dog Flying » Mon Jan 04, 2010 7:55 pm

Chuck ...I fully concur with your statement! The RCAF had a turn-around maneuver called a "Dumb-bell" to be used if a flame-out occurs after T/O. This was in the early '50s when we received the first T-33s at Portage. Most of the instructors were WW2 combat types with plenty of experience but there were still fatalities when a "Dumb-bell" was attempted...and I witnessed a few. Not very nice to see.

Stick with the procedure detailed by MichaelP and other experienced instructors and save yourself the grief of explaining why your student attempted a "Dumb-Bell". I taught this same procedure for 38 years to hundreds of students and never lost one. But come to think of it I don't know of many of these students have had an engine failure ATO.

Now lets get back to the original thread...spinning a C172!
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Re: spinning

Post by hz2p » Mon Jan 04, 2010 8:17 pm

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Tango01
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Re: spinning

Post by Tango01 » Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:02 pm

What's the definition of a hamburger pilot?
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Re: spinning

Post by Big Pistons Forever » Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:26 pm

I have never heard of a hamburger pilot. Maybe he is thinking of a "hound dog" pilot, so called because on every landing his tires go "yelp, yelp yeeeeelp" :smt040
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Re: spinning

Post by Tango01 » Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:32 pm

Big Pistons Forever wrote:I have never heard of a hamburger pilot. Maybe he is thinking of a "hound dog" pilot, so called because on every landing his tires go "yelp, yelp yeeeeelp" :smt040
I only know of the $100 Hamburger. Maybe these weekend warriors are the ones the poster is talking about. Nevertheless, most of those dudes have a lot more flying experience that new CPL's.

Bottom line. Like Cat said, don't turn back unless you are 100% sure you can do it.
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Re: spinning

Post by The Old Fogducker » Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:54 pm

"No turnbacks" would be my advice, but at the same time, not necessarily straight ahead either. One of the neatest old ww2 era CFI's in Vancouver, nicknamed "Buzz" gave me some simple, excellent advice ... "unless you can already see it in the windshield, don't go for it, just pick the best looking spot and hit it as slowly and accurately as you are able."

What he was conveying was ... don't get so hung up on gliding perfectly straight ahead and fly into the side of a brick building when the ten acre empty parking lot is 10 degrees to one side.

OFD
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Re: spinning

Post by hz2p » Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:20 am

.
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Re: spinning

Post by iflyforpie » Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:58 am

MichaelP wrote:
I do a practice return to the field from 400 ft with a two second delay each year during company training. My batting average is about 0.50.
I think that such a practice is probably as dangerous as practicing a spin from 800 feet or even perhaps 500 feet so that you'll have the skill to do it in an emergency.
Sure it is more dangerous at 400 ft than 1000, but it is nowhere near as dangerous as a spin if you have power available and are in a controlled environment. If this was dangerous, then a simple approach and landing would be dangerous too. If not, where do you draw the line? 1/2 mile stabilized approach? 1/4 mile? 1/8 mile? Do you not ever do a forced approach to landing with an odd approach pattern?

Read my whole post again, I am not advocating this type of approach. I will not simply wheel back to the field with a plane load of passengers; I know my plane too well to do that.

I practice this for curiosity and proficiency, nothing more. The fact that I have done this a few times has me more convinced against doing it in a real emergency than if I wasn't exposed to it at all.


But if I was departing Nelson BC on 22 and was looking at nothing but water, mountain, and town for a forced approach site, I am not going to forget about the 3000 or so feet of runway behind me if I have enough altitude. I will be no worse off if I keep the aircraft under control...
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