Vx is best angle of climb...not best rate.AuxBatOn wrote:flown at Vx (best rate).
I don't know a lot of people that climb at Vx... poor engine cooling, poor visibility, poor rate of climb...
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Vx is best angle of climb...not best rate.AuxBatOn wrote:flown at Vx (best rate).
Just like initially you cannot make a PFL every time, with practice it comes. Same with this. If this was taught and practiced, I have no doubt anybody could do it, most of the time.Big Pistons Forever wrote: It doesn't matter if you can do the turn back at 350 AAE, what matters can every civil PPL student do it everytime. I am positive that every one of my students, on their worst day, could manage a safe landing straight ahead (with a + - 30 deg turn to avoid obstacles) below 1000 AAE and can safely turn back above 1000 AAE, that's why I teach the 1000ft mark as the decision altitude. The accident statistics are pretty clear, the turn back manoever after a real engine failure seems to come out two ways, it is either successfull of there is a big hole full of dead people.
I have never instructed. Period. I am not debating how you should teach it, but just pointing out I think it should be taught. For that, you don't need to be an instructor. I came to the conclusion that it is an other viable option in a situation when already you are limited with options, with my experience both civilian and military. Remove that big nice field 2 miles from the departure end of the runway and replace it with trees, you suddenly don't have many options. Having more options for you to use is never a bad thing.Big Pistons Forever wrote:BTW have you ever instructed for the civil PPL ? Instructing for the air force means you are teaching the cream of the crop in avery controlled environment. Regretably these advantages do not exis in civil instructing and so I feel some extra margin has to be allowed for civil instructing
I wondered if anyone was going to notice that. Good catch.Benwa wrote:Vx is best angle of climb...not best rate.AuxBatOn wrote:flown at Vx (best rate).
I don't know a lot of people that climb at Vx... poor engine cooling, poor visibility, poor rate of climb...
I never advocated doing it by yourself the first time at 300'. Remember, I did this at altitude first, trying to figure out how much I was going to lose in the turn and how to make the turn, then tried it with someone else watching my flying.MichaelP wrote:How many impressionable people reading this forum might attempt the turn because AuxBat can do it and die doing it?
It's totally different because by this time in a forced landing scenario you are no longer surprised.it's no different than the final 180 degree turn in an orbit PFL.
That's why I 'spring load' myself to a reaction in case something happens. No trying to troubleshoot, no trying to figure out what I'm gonna do. My decisions are taken before I even step in the airplane. It's part of my pre-flight routine and should be, in my mind, part of everyone's pre-flight routine.MichaelP wrote:It's totally different because by this time in a forced landing scenario you are no longer surprised.
Leave a BIG margin for error please, 350 has no margin... 600 feet maybe on a calm day.
Agreed.It's part of my pre-flight routine and should be, in my mind, part of everyone's pre-flight routine.
Tango01 wrote:Make sure you stall it first. I used to spin the C172R with 1800 rpm at least. Get that rudder in fully and hold it. It doesn't like to spin.
I totally disagree with this, there's a reason its not taught and not practiced - It doesn't work in a majority of the scenarios.Flyinthebug makes a compelling arguement against such training in this thread. Keep in mind that the idea of teaching it to students beyond the PPL introduces a bad practice especially when that pilot is more likely to be flying aircraft which won't make the glide back to the field. Our basic 150 or 172 might make that glide back a 172XP for instance won't - an extra 50 or so odd pounds of engine weight forward of the firewall really makes the difference on that glide angle. Larger singles - like the 206 and Saratoga have terrible turning radii to make the turn and once again ain't going to make it. Light twins, should you have that bad day of bad days and have both quit on you, present an even worse case scenario - Refer to Hedley's tale of two commanches. Should you be flying something larger - ask yourself "What would Sully do?"Just like initially you cannot make a PFL every time, with practice it comes. Same with this. If this was taught and practiced, I have no doubt anybody could do it, most of the time.
If the turn back manoever result in crashes, is most likely because it is not taught or practiced by pilots. If it was, I'd like to see that stat again
I think that such a practice is probably as dangerous as practicing a spin from 800 feet or even perhaps 500 feet so that you'll have the skill to do it in an emergency.I do a practice return to the field from 400 ft with a two second delay each year during company training. My batting average is about 0.50.