spinning

[AuxBatOn]

+1.

During EFTO at low altitude, there is no time to figure out about what energy state the airplane will turn back safely. I dont understand what this has to do with flying experience. When your way up there, there is plenty of time to decide where you want to land.

So, when you fly, there are 2 types of energy: kinetic (speed) and potential (altitude). Since you kinetic energy is pretty much constant in a climb, the only other thing you need to look at to "assess" you energy is your Altitude. Part of your duty as a pilot is to know what your aircraft can do. You know that with a 10 kts headwind in a C-152, you can turn back, and land from theoraticallly 200'. Now, you may not be comfortable doing it at 200', leaving no margin, however give yourself 150' and you can do it comfortably from 350'. So, it's too hard for someone to think, when in the climb "Hmmm, I just passed 350' AAE, I'm good for a turn back"? You really don't trust your students?

Giving yourself "gate" or "criteria" is the way you asses your energy.

[MichaelP]

the way you asses your energy

Of course if you get it wrong then you make an 'ass' of yourself

This is similar to the loop discussion.
An expert pilot does a superb loop, dead accurate, knows the radius of that loop and then doing that very precise loop with a little margin for error he piles the beautiful example of aerobatic grace into the ground in a spectacular flaming explosion right in front of the appreciative crowd.

Always know that however well you fly your aeroplane you will never fly it that well in an emergency.

[AuxBatOn]

the way you asses your energy

Of course if you get it wrong then you make an 'ass' of yourself

This is similar to the loop discussion.
An expert pilot does a superb loop, dead accurate, knows the radius of that loop and then doing that very precise loop with a little margin for error he piles the beautiful example of aerobatic grace into the ground in a spectacular flaming explosion right in front of the appreciative crowd.

Always know that however well you fly your aeroplane you will never fly it that well in an emergency.

Hence the:

Now, you may not be comfortable doing it at 200', leaving no margin, however give yourself 150' and you can do it comfortably from 350'.

[MichaelP]

Regardless... Before you look at the altimeter ensure the speed is there to do it!

Personally I lower the nose first and assess the situation and I might be at 350 feet or so, but lower than that when I have fully assessed the situation.

I'd be very very careful with this one. It is nearly always better to crash ahead while under control than risk loss of control turning.
Take the wind into account and remember the Illusions lesson from your training.

[AuxBatOn]

Regardless... Before you look at the altimeter ensure the speed is there to do it!

If you keep Vx, in my experience with small cessnas, you will be able to make the turn... Safely. If you were climbing at Vx and trimmed for Vx, when the engine quits, the plane will want to maintain Vx.

Personally I lower the nose first and assess the situation and I might be at 350 feet or so, but lower than that when I have fully assessed the situation.

That's why you need to be ready. If you loose power on the climb out, above 350', or whatever you cut off is for that day, you turn back, no questions asked. There is not much time to think and analyse on a take off emergency and pre-tought actions must be taken.

I'd be very very careful with this one. It is nearly always better to crash ahead while under control than risk loss of control turning.

If you keep your speed up to Vx around the corner, you should not have any problem, unless you pull more than 2Gz (That's more than 60 degrees of bank!) Keeping 30-40 degrees bank is normally enough to turn you around efficiently.

[Shiny Side Up]

If you keep Vx, in my experience with small cessnas, you will be able to make the turn... Safely.

Personally I'd like to bring you here and make you eat some words. Being able to make the turn depends on a lot of factors many of which haven't been brought up in this discussion. The first which has was the headwind component. True enough if you got 10+ Knots right off the nose you'll probably be able to make it back. I don't know where you fly out of, but I rarely get such ideal conditions - nine times out of ten if there's wind it will be a cross wind. Do your vector diagram - with any sort of crosswind component it changes your glide considerably. Think fast! Which way do you make your turn? Into the wind or with it?

Density altitude plays a big factor as well, so does the weight of the aircraft. In Alberta I'm usually flying out of places in the 3000'+ field elevation. Unless I'm a combination of lightly loaded (in otherwords by myself with less than a half load of fuel) with a perfect headwind, more than 3000' of runway (easier to make it back to the nearest end) and a relatively cold day, I ain't making that "impossible turn".

Its not an impossible turn, but in most cases its an improbable turn.

[AuxBatOn]

If you keep Vx, in my experience with small cessnas, you will be able to make the turn... Safely.

Personally I'd like to bring you here and make you eat some words. Being able to make the turn depends on a lot of factors many of which haven't been brought up in this discussion. The first which has was the headwind component. True enough if you got 10+ Knots right off the nose you'll probably be able to make it back. I don't know where you fly out of, but I rarely get such ideal conditions - nine times out of ten if there's wind it will be a cross wind. Do your vector diagram - with any sort of crosswind component it changes your glide considerably. Think fast! Which way do you make your turn? Into the wind or with it?

Density altitude plays a big factor as well, so does the weight of the aircraft. In Alberta I'm usually flying out of places in the 3000'+ field elevation. Unless I'm a combination of lightly loaded (in otherwords by myself with less than a half load of fuel) with a perfect headwind, more than 3000' of runway (easier to make it back to the nearest end) and a relatively cold day, I ain't making that "impossible turn".

Its not an impossible turn, but in most cases its an improbable turn.

I ran the numbers and I'd be more than happy to share the excel spreadsheet that I made. It takes into consideration pressure altitude, temperature, wind component, altitude lost in turn and runway lengh. It calculates the take off roll, climb gradient, descend gradient, landing roll and comes up with a window of opportunity (described in altitude) depending of the factors input by the user and gives you where on the runway you will touch down. Made for C-150M, can be easily changed to any other small single (by changing the tables).

Turning into wind is always your best bet to come back to the field (and the direction of the wind should be well known before take off). It keeps you laterally closer to the runway. Unless you have a parrallel runway you want to land on.

Using this, if we take a 3500' pressure altitude at 20 degrees celcius and no wind, you can make it on a 4000' runway (marginally, I would not try it), and it's easy to make from a 5000' runway up to 400'.

[Shiny Side Up]

Using this, if we take a 3500' pressure altitude at 20 degrees celcius and no wind, you can make it on a 4000' runway (marginally, I would not try it), and it's easy to make from a 5000' runway up to 400'.

I'll point out that a marginal bet isn't one to risk your life on. I'll also bring up the point that this depends heavily on maintinaing Vx to altitude, and obviously becomes even more "marginal" if you have less than 4000' of runway available.

[AuxBatOn]

Using this, if we take a 3500' pressure altitude at 20 degrees celcius and no wind, you can make it on a 4000' runway (marginally, I would not try it), and it's easy to make from a 5000' runway up to 400'.

I'll point out that a marginal bet isn't one to risk your life on. I'll also bring up the point that this depends heavily on maintinaing Vx to altitude, and obviously becomes even more "marginal" if you have less than 4000' of runway available.

That's why you need to know what conditions you are faced with and know how they will affect your decision. Post PPL, I don't think it is unreasonable to expect that from students.

I do not encourage people to push the envelope, but rather find a comfortable envelope in which they could perform it. Saying that it is an "impossible turn" is pure BS. It is possible, but it takes practice and you have to think it through on the ground, before you attempt it in the air.

As far as Vx to altitude, well if you are faster than Vx, you can trade that speed for turning performance or altitude, which in the end, would be almost the same thing (you'd loose a little bit since climbing above Vx is not as efficient, but it'd be pretty darn close).

If you are slower than Vx (but faster or on Vy), you are just climbing steeper, improving your situation. That's why I use Vx and not Vy.

Nonetheless, I think it's at the very least something to discuss and consider. If you are not comfortable with it, nothing forces you to even try it. However, if you consider it, it becomes other option that is available to you in case something goes wrong.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Regardless... Before you look at the altimeter ensure the speed is there to do it!

Personally I lower the nose first and assess the situation and I might be at 350 feet or so, but lower than that when I have fully assessed the situation.

I'd be very very careful with this one. It is nearly always better to crash ahead while under control than risk loss of control turning.
Take the wind into account and remember the Illusions lesson from your training.

A big plus one.

Auxbaton

It doesn't matter if you can do the turn back at 350 AAE, what matters can every civil PPL student do it everytime. I am positive that every one of my students, on their worst day, could manage a safe landing straight ahead (with a + - 30 deg turn to avoid obstacles) below 1000 AAE and can safely turn back above 1000 AAE, that's why I teach the 1000ft mark as the decision altitude. The accident statistics are pretty clear, the turn back manoever after a real engine failure seems to come out two ways, it is either successfull of there is a big hole full of dead people.

BTW have you ever instructed for the civil PPL ? Instructing for the air force means you are teaching the cream of the crop in a very controlled environment. Regretably these advantages do not exis in civil instructing and so I feel some extra margin has to be allowed for civil instructing.

[Benwa]

flown at Vx (best rate).

Vx is best angle of climb...not best rate.

I don't know a lot of people that climb at Vx... poor engine cooling, poor visibility, poor rate of climb...

[MichaelP]

How many impressionable people reading this forum might attempt the turn because AuxBat can do it and die doing it?

It's why I write: "..be very very careful on this one".

As instructors we have to take responsibility for the information we provide.
If you are willing to stand by what you write, are prepared to see someone execute such an action following an engine failure after takeoff, then it is up to you.

I for one can never advocate someone calculating an ideal and being prepared to go against proven training as an SOP.
Engine failure after takeoff, lower the nose first and then consider your options.
Like the ace of the base who loops his aeroplane into a spectacular crash at the airshow, that extra little pull on the stick can mean disaster whereas the calculated ideal, practiced with a good engine on a nice day might not.

[AuxBatOn]

It doesn't matter if you can do the turn back at 350 AAE, what matters can every civil PPL student do it everytime. I am positive that every one of my students, on their worst day, could manage a safe landing straight ahead (with a + - 30 deg turn to avoid obstacles) below 1000 AAE and can safely turn back above 1000 AAE, that's why I teach the 1000ft mark as the decision altitude. The accident statistics are pretty clear, the turn back manoever after a real engine failure seems to come out two ways, it is either successfull of there is a big hole full of dead people.

Just like initially you cannot make a PFL every time, with practice it comes. Same with this. If this was taught and practiced, I have no doubt anybody could do it, most of the time.

If the turn back manoever result in crashes, is most likely because it is not taught or practiced by pilots. If it was, I'd like to see that stat again.

BTW have you ever instructed for the civil PPL ? Instructing for the air force means you are teaching the cream of the crop in avery controlled environment. Regretably these advantages do not exis in civil instructing and so I feel some extra margin has to be allowed for civil instructing

I have never instructed. Period. I am not debating how you should teach it, but just pointing out I think it should be taught. For that, you don't need to be an instructor. I came to the conclusion that it is an other viable option in a situation when already you are limited with options, with my experience both civilian and military. Remove that big nice field 2 miles from the departure end of the runway and replace it with trees, you suddenly don't have many options. Having more options for you to use is never a bad thing.

Benwa: my bad, I swap Vy for Vx and Vx for Vy. Brain fart... Best rate is what I meant.

[AEROBAT]

flown at Vx (best rate).

Vx is best angle of climb...not best rate.

I don't know a lot of people that climb at Vx... poor engine cooling, poor visibility, poor rate of climb...

I wondered if anyone was going to notice that. Good catch.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Auxbaton

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one as there is no way I can be convinced that it would be a good idea to have PPL's think a turn back manoever from 350 AAE is a good idea under any circumstances.

[MichaelP]

Cat noticed it and posed the question on the Two week thread.

If I was low and faced with trees I would still go ahead.
Many many people have died turning back for this.
It is always better to crash while still in control of the aircraft.

[MichaelP]

Hot topic isn't it!

Take responsibility for what you write.

[AuxBatOn]

How many impressionable people reading this forum might attempt the turn because AuxBat can do it and die doing it?

I never advocated doing it by yourself the first time at 300'. Remember, I did this at altitude first, trying to figure out how much I was going to lose in the turn and how to make the turn, then tried it with someone else watching my flying.

BPF, sure we'll have to disagree on that one, and that's fine. I'm just exposing my experience with it. And to me, it's no different than the final 180 degree turn in an orbit PFL.

[MichaelP]

it's no different than the final 180 degree turn in an orbit PFL.

It's totally different because by this time in a forced landing scenario you are no longer surprised.

Leave a BIG margin for error please, 350 has no margin... 600 feet maybe on a calm day.

[AuxBatOn]

It's totally different because by this time in a forced landing scenario you are no longer surprised.

Leave a BIG margin for error please, 350 has no margin... 600 feet maybe on a calm day.

That's why I 'spring load' myself to a reaction in case something happens. No trying to troubleshoot, no trying to figure out what I'm gonna do. My decisions are taken before I even step in the airplane. It's part of my pre-flight routine and should be, in my mind, part of everyone's pre-flight routine.