Shortest Time to Solo

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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: Shortest Time to Solo

Post by Big Pistons Forever » Mon Jan 11, 2010 9:50 pm

Cat Driver wrote:Obviously your resentment of anything I say skews your thought process and you end up making childish remarks like above BPF.

So let me put the question another way.

If flight training in Canada is supposed to be to a high level quality wise how do instructors as inept as the one you described not only get the rating but are allowed to keep on instructing?

By the way only Canadians call the PBY a Canso.
For the same reason inept pilots, exist in every other segment of the industry, they suck up to the boss, or talk a good line, or deflect blame on their co workers, or are just lucky. My only bone to pick with you is your constant and tiresome assertion that everyone who holds a flight instructor rating is incompetant

And re the comment about Canso's ......Sorry about that .....PBY Driver
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patter
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Re: Shortest Time to Solo

Post by patter » Tue Jan 12, 2010 11:06 am

5. I could have sent him solo sooner, but there is such a thing as a curriculum and I made him complete it.
70. An older and wealthy man. That's as far as he could go.
Lots of 9's and 10's over the years. Less now with complicated airspace. People who solo at less than 10 are more likely to have an awkward encounter with radiocommunication.
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Shiny Side Up
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Re: Shortest Time to Solo

Post by Shiny Side Up » Tue Jan 12, 2010 4:09 pm

5. I could have sent him solo sooner, but there is such a thing as a curriculum and I made him complete it.
This brings up a point I always wonder about when it comes to people going solo fast. For those who claim such short times I'd be interested in flight by flight, hour by hour how the student did and the excersises covered. Personally though I've came close, I'd be hard pressed getting everything in there in less than 9 hours even should I have ideal conditions for the student to go solo. Even looking at the upper air excersises and the circuit lessons alone we're looking pressed for time. I should say as well that I have fairly ideal conditions of a quiet airport and a close practice area to work within. With that in mind students usually solo in the 12 to 15 hour range which falls well within a reasonable time reference for completing a licence.

So how did you guys do it?

To answer another question:
How did he/she get and keep an instructors rating if he/she was universally considered a moron?

Or is moron the minimum intelligence allowed to be a flight instructor in Canada?
To be blunt, there is no minimum intelligence requirement. There exists the possibility that someone may indeed defeat the system by pure luck. Just like a million monkeys on a million typewriters will eventually produce all of Shakespere's works. There is the possibility that an idiot through sheer preserverence (which will increase the time the idiot will spend making the attempt - remember the monkeys eventually manifest the work - but will also increase the probability of the idiot succeeding). It doesn't help that the testing and prerequisites are somewhat inadequate - much like if you accepted the monkey's work if you were content that they just got most of Hamlet produced.

What this means is that the quality control for flight instructing out there falls largely in the laps of the Chief Flight Instructors out there - which keep in mind are 1) produced by the same testing system as above, 2) Chosen largely by their abilities as managers, not necessarily as fliers or instructors, and 3) is one of the least sought after posts in aviation being that the rise in responsibility is usually considerably greater than the rise in pay as well as usually meaning a reduction in the much sought after flying hours.

Long story short, the "morons" are being oversaw by largely pilots who don't especially want to be overseers. The so-called policing that TC does of the matter is largely tossed in their laps.
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Strega
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Re: Shortest Time to Solo

Post by Strega » Tue Jan 12, 2010 5:52 pm

I went solo in 9 hours, partly because we didn't fly 12 min crcuits like everyone does today
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Re: Shortest Time to Solo

Post by Giveitago » Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:38 pm

For Me.....7.(something) I don't exactly remember.

But..I had a great instructor..a fellow with a SHITE...load of hours flying everything from Beech 18's to hueys to the CF-101 and others. A substantial portion of this was with a flight training unit in the CAF.

The reason that I did reasonably well was that he was not afraid to let me screw up in the initial training, didn't come rushing in to save me from myself and stupid mistakes. He let me make them AND fix them. Steep learning curve...the best kind..for me anyways.

That mixed with my ability to walk and chew gum (basic co-ordination) made for a quick solo. But really, it all came down to the instructors ability I believe. And even though this may stir a hornets nest, I really don't understand why we take the lowest time pilots we can find with the least amount of operational experience and we ask them to teach the next batch of pilots.

Give.


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I have never been an instructor so my head may be firmly planted up my kiester with the last part of the monologue.
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Re: Shortest Time to Solo

Post by modi13 » Wed Jan 13, 2010 12:27 am

Giveitago wrote:For Me.....7.(something) I don't exactly remember.

But..I had a great instructor..a fellow with a SHITE...load of hours flying everything from Beech 18's to hueys to the CF-101 and others. A substantial portion of this was with a flight training unit in the CAF.

The reason that I did reasonably well was that he was not afraid to let me screw up in the initial training, didn't come rushing in to save me from myself and stupid mistakes. He let me make them AND fix them. Steep learning curve...the best kind..for me anyways.

That mixed with my ability to walk and chew gum (basic co-ordination) made for a quick solo. But really, it all came down to the instructors ability I believe. And even though this may stir a hornets nest, I really don't understand why we take the lowest time pilots we can find with the least amount of operational experience and we ask them to teach the next batch of pilots.

Give.


Caveat..
I have never been an instructor so my head may be firmly planted up my kiester with the last part of the monologue.
There's nothing more conducive to learning how to fly properly than having a teacher with an extensive amount of experience. Only once I began my instructor rating with one of the most expereinced Class Is in the country did I realize just how little I had learned in my PPL and CPL training. I think everything should be required to do 30 hours of flying with a Class I at some point during their training. At the very least, you know that the instructor isn't just there for the hours; if they've gone that far, they're probably a career instructor, and want to dedicate the time and effort to properly train their students.
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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: Shortest Time to Solo

Post by Big Pistons Forever » Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:30 am

Strega wrote:I went solo in 9 hours, partly because we didn't fly 12 min crcuits like everyone does today
It is pretty hard to fly tight circuits if you are No. 5 to land.....

Yes learning to fly at a busy airport will usually mean it will take longer to get your PPL but you will be a much better pilot. IMO if there is one factor that is contributing to examples of execesive times to solo, it is the fairly common tendancy for instructors to rush students into the circuit. Ex 5 to 9 provide the foundation skills on which everything else in piloting an airplane is based on. My experience has been a bit of extra time perfecting the basics pays big dividends later. When I was a senior full time instructor at a busy school I was given several students who could not land. In every case their primary instructor had started the circuit lessons too early and so I went back to the practice area and reviewed the basics, invariably finding weak skills in the foundation manoevers.

i have personally seen very little correlation between time to solo and competance at the CPL and IFR/Instructor level. The solo is all about the hands and feet skills, which is about 10 % of what makes a good pilot and therefore time to solo is ultimately irrelavent.
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Re: Shortest Time to Solo

Post by hz2p » Wed Jan 13, 2010 9:10 am

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Re: Shortest Time to Solo

Post by iflyforpie » Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:48 am

Well, maybe good hands and feet are more than 10% of what makes a good pilot, but they are far from 100%. The pilot with the best hands and feet in the world can still wind up flying in bad weather, have systems failures, run out of fuel, or break regulations.

I wonder if the pilot of that 747 needed to land on such a narrow runway? Surely there were better options within the range of the aircraft. I could see #2 and #3 getting FOD'd out pretty easily... Too much stick and rudder and not enough PDM?? :?

The solo is a confidence booster and a stepping stone into the wider world of flying. The student who soloed at 5 hours because they were born in a 180 flying along with dad may have good hands and feet, but how much other knowledge have they absorbed other than doing what dad told them to do?

There is a reason why the solo is early in the curriculum...
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Re: Shortest Time to Solo

Post by hz2p » Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:53 am

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Re: Shortest Time to Solo

Post by Tango01 » Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:00 am

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hz2p
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Re: Shortest Time to Solo

Post by hz2p » Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:03 am

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Re: Shortest Time to Solo

Post by iflyforpie » Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:14 am

hz2p wrote: So that decade of aviation that they spent with their father didn't teach them anything about navigation, weather or airmanship...
Oh, so there is more to flying than just stick and rudder! (Which I never said wasn't required BTW...)
according to your socialist mantra?
Hedley... is that you?
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Re: Shortest Time to Solo

Post by Tango01 » Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:16 am

Hedley=hz2p?
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Re: Shortest Time to Solo

Post by patter » Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:17 am

There was a time in this country when the PPL could be achieved at 35 hours. I taught lots of those too. And it was done on the taildragger.
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Re: Shortest Time to Solo

Post by Cat Driver » Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:57 am

And before that we did it in 30 hours, taught on taildraggers.

And I also taught a lot in that time frame. :mrgreen:

The cost for a PPL was $ 300.00 and the government gave us $150.00 back. :smt040
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Re: Shortest Time to Solo

Post by Tango01 » Wed Jan 13, 2010 12:07 pm

Cat Driver wrote:And before that we did it in 30 hours, taught on taildraggers.

And I also taught a lot in that time frame. :mrgreen:

The cost for a PPL was $ 300.00 and the government gave us $150.00 back. :smt040

So you paid $150. What is that in today's money?
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Re: Shortest Time to Solo

Post by Big Pistons Forever » Wed Jan 13, 2010 2:45 pm

iflyforpie wrote:Well, maybe good hands and feet are more than 10% of what makes a good pilot, but they are far from 100%. The pilot with the best hands and feet in the world can still wind up flying in bad weather, have systems failures, run out of fuel, or break regulations.


The solo is a confidence booster and a stepping stone into the wider world of flying. The student who soloed at 5 hours because they were born in a 180 flying along with dad may have good hands and feet, but how much other knowledge have they absorbed other than doing what dad told them to do.
Pie

My comment on the 10% was meant to indicate that on an average flight about 10% of what was demanded of the pilot was pure hands and feet skills. Obviously certain specific flights could demand a lot more, but I think the average is around 10 %. With respect to the kid with a 1000 hrs, I am ashamed to admit, but at the time he had more real world experience operating (and fixing) aircraft than I did.
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Re: Shortest Time to Solo

Post by iflyforpie » Wed Jan 13, 2010 3:21 pm

I was pretty sure I was agreeing with you BPF.

Like good hands and feet aren't required during cruise but that is when decision making comes into play (should I stop for fuel or press on? I'm lost, how can I find myself again without a GPS? do I need a clearance for Class D airspace? etc).

The pilot spraying crops is probably requires 90% hands and feet, while the instructor on a 150NM cross country is probably at about 3%. :mrgreen:
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Re: Shortest Time to Solo

Post by Shiny Side Up » Wed Jan 13, 2010 5:16 pm

Tango01 wrote:
Cat Driver wrote:And before that we did it in 30 hours, taught on taildraggers.

And I also taught a lot in that time frame. :mrgreen:

The cost for a PPL was $ 300.00 and the government gave us $150.00 back. :smt040

So you paid $150. What is that in today's money?
If I place the time correctly during the same period a loaf of bread sold for about a dime at the time as well. Today the same loaf of bread is about $3.00 which means that the rate of inflation since then is about 3000%. It comes to roughly the same if you price out other costs like vehicles (even airplanes, though it varies somewhat) gasoline or wages. To put it in layman's terms it means Cat Driver's licence cost about $9000.00 of today's money. For a 45 hour licence I usually quote $10,000 these days so take from that what you will. One has to wonder how much less tax we'd be owing today if our government hadn't given $4500 back to all those pilots, somedays it feels like Transport is trying to get it back out of us... That $150 wouldn't even cover the licencing fee today should you have saved it in a sock with the intent of getting a licence.
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Re: Shortest Time to Solo

Post by Cat Driver » Wed Jan 13, 2010 5:55 pm

When I was getting my PPL I was driving a delivery truck and my pay was $35.00 a week.

The cost aside the fact still remains we did get the PPL in 30 hours flying tail wheel airplanes.

Before anyone jumps in with the old red herring about how we did not have all that radio work to contend with, we sure did as the Island Airport was very busy and was controlled by a tower.
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Re: Shortest Time to Solo

Post by Shiny Side Up » Wed Jan 13, 2010 6:13 pm

Before anyone jumps in with the old red herring about how we did not have all that radio work to contend with, we sure did as the Island Airport was very busy and was controlled by a tower.
I'll agree there and say that learning radio work - while a hang up for some students, doesn't equal more training hours in airplane.

I'm not going to get into the bit about whether people can or can't be trained in 30 hours or 35 hours or 45 hours. As far as I'm concerned those numbers are mandated by bureaucrats not indicative of the actual time required to train a pilot to be a safe flyer. You already know my stance on the ammount of difference the aircraft's landing gear makes on the quality of the pilot.

On the cost comparrison though, I could earn about $1000 to $1500 a week with a similar type of job, the rate of increase still stands. :wink:
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Re: Shortest Time to Solo

Post by Cat Driver » Wed Jan 13, 2010 6:18 pm

Of course the rate of increase still stands, I never suggested it did not.

We all have opinions and we form our opinions based on our experiences in life.

It is my own personal opinion that the flight instructors fifty some years ago were better teachers than today's flight instructors ...generally speaking. :mrgreen:
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Re: Shortest Time to Solo

Post by Invertago » Wed Jan 13, 2010 6:24 pm

I don't think tail wheel is harder to learn when you're just starting, I was only 6 hours into my PPL when I was introduced to tail wheel. The trouble with tail wheel is when you have 100hrs trike and you make the switch and take all your habits with you. What can be really interesting is taking a guy with 2000hrs recent float time and 50 hours wheels from long ago and getting him to land on a runway again. (never done the reverse, but I assume it is similar or worse)

As for the 30 vs 45 hours difference. I think TC has invented a few more hoops to jump through that may not have existed back then. The first one I think of is the 5 hours instrument time required now. But just as a new C172 is a heaver plane then an original 50 year old one, it is the nature of things to grow bulkier over time. Away from the flying side, the paperwork side is significantly larger now.

Eventually the PPL will probably hit 50 hours because some desk jockey wants to add 5 hours parking practice, then the following year they'll come up with a new entry level 30 hour license that lets you only fly LSAs. Just the way it goes.
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Re: Shortest Time to Solo

Post by shitdisturber » Wed Jan 13, 2010 6:27 pm

Cat Driver wrote:Before anyone jumps in with the old red herring about how we did not have all that radio work to contend with, we sure did as the Island Airport was very busy and was controlled by a tower.
I wasn't aware the Wright Flyer had an electrical system, let alone a radio. :mrgreen:
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