Newbie needs advice...PPL or RPL...?

[greenhat]

Hi Everyone,

So I've been doing quite a bit of research and am very interested in learning to fly. This is for fun as a hobby, and I doubt it'll ever be for commercial flying.

I am stating a job in June in Fort McMurray, the school there offers Private Pilots License and Recreational Pilots License programs. The cost is 175/hr dual and 130/hr solo. Basically the same as anywhere else for the groundwork and other fees. I have a few questions that I was unable to find good answers for so I am turning to this forum for seasoned advice.

**How expensive is it to fly as an ongoing cost and initial training?** I am on a 6 days on 6 days off work schedule. My salary will be in the just over the six figure range. I am single, 22 and have no student loans to pay off. I am planning on renting when I get my license, and would like to do day trips as well as some overnight trips/extended trips. I want to stay current and fly at least twice a month or more.

I read somewhere that flying is the fastest way to turn money into noise... is this true?

**How often do other recreational pilots actually get in the air?**

**Is it worth the extra money to get the PPL over the RPL?**

I want to fly into the mountains and land a little float plane on an isolated mountain lake... it's thoughts like this that really get me excited.

**Does the pilots license get babes?**

**Are the costs at McMurray Aviation too expensive?**

http://www.mcmurrayaviation.com/priv-pi ... sheet.html
http://www.mcmurrayaviation.com/rec-pilotcostsheet.html


Thank you all in advance for your replies.

John

[mcrit]

**How expensive is it to fly as an ongoing cost and initial training?** I am on a 6 days on 6 days off work schedule. My salary will be in the just over the six figure range. I am single, 22 and have no student loans to pay off. I am planning on renting when I get my license, and would like to do day trips as well as some overnight trips/extended trips. I want to stay current and fly at least twice a month or more.

Depends how much you want to spend on other vices, but I think you should have the cash to fly 2 x month.

I read somewhere that flying is the fastest way to turn money into noise... is this true?

Pretty much, yes.

**How often do other recreational pilots actually get in the air?**

Depends on money, weather and schedule. If you have lots of money, good weather and spare time you'll fly a lot.

**Is it worth the extra money to get the PPL over the RPL?**

YES. The extra instrument training can save your life if you get into a bad situation. The extra navigation training can keep you from getting into a bad situation.

**Does the pilots license get babes?**

Sure, as long as it comes with good looks and lots of money.

[greenhat]

Thanks for the quick reply!

I am really interested in knowing actual rough figures of how much it costs. I can't determine if I can afford it unless I know how much it'as actually going to cost me based on what i stated in my original post. Any rough figures are greatly appreciated!

John

[PAJ]

Thanks for the quick reply!

I am really interested in knowing actual rough figures of how much it costs. I can't determine if I can afford it unless I know how much it'as actually going to cost me based on what i stated in my original post. Any rough figures are greatly appreciated!

John

I got my PPL just over 2 years ago and using simple math it cost about $10,000. The total costs that most FTU's advertise are based on minimum hours as required by Transport Canada. Unless you are a real super star you can count on requiring more than the minimum training. Included in the 10K figure is all the other stuff that you will need or want: headset, medical, extra charts, fees, bag and any other shiny pilot stuff that you invariably will decide you can't do without.

A RPL will cost roughly half of that (again, simple math) but why limit yourself? After you are licensed (RPL) you will only be allowed 1 passenger and only day VFR. You might not think this is important at this stage of your journey but they are real considerations later on as you gain some experience and confidence. What happens when two of your friends want to come along or you decide you want a night rating? Additionally and even more important is that the extra training required for the PPL is not lost time but rather valuable experience.

You mentioned that you do not want to be a commercial pilot - fine; lots of us around. Think of your training as part of the whole experience and not a means to an end. If you have the time and money (seems like you have both) than IMHO you should aim for the PPL right from the start.

Good Luck!

[Fling Wing]

Although it may seem the most economical right now to go for the RPL, it would probably turn out to be hinderance later on as you gain confidence and want to add endorsements, ect. I'm not totally sure on this but I believe there may also me a 25 mile radius limit to flights as a recreational pilot.

For me, flying on average once per week, it took me 1 year, 50 hrs and about 12 G for the ppl.

Good luck

[iflyforpie]

**How expensive is it to fly as an ongoing cost and initial training?** I am on a 6 days on 6 days off work schedule. My salary will be in the just over the six figure range. I am single, 22 and have no student loans to pay off.

Budget $10000 for a private license. This should more than take care of your training plus a little extra for a headset and post-license joy rides. 6 off is good unless you are spending two of those days recovering. I did my training working 40 hours a week with not too much difficulty. Try to fly at least twice a week.

I am planning on renting when I get my license, and would like to do day trips as well as some overnight trips/extended trips. I want to stay current and fly at least twice a month or more.

Most schools are pretty tight with their aircraft for long/overnight trips since they lose the revenue potential when it is away from base. I found it very difficult to stay more than one night away (most places I wanted to fly there and stay for a few days). Also, weather can make things interesting logistically.

I read somewhere that flying is the fastest way to turn money into noise... is this true?

The boat rental company down on the lake charges the same hourly rate as we do for our 172, but gas and oil is extra...

**How often do other recreational pilots actually get in the air?**

On average, not much. Average annual usage for private aircraft on which I perform annuals is about 20 hours a year; and more than half of the pilots I do rental checkouts with only rent once. Flying takes not only money, but patience, time, and dedication. You cannot simply rent a plane and go blazing off on a whim..

**Is it worth the extra money to get the PPL over the RPL?**

Yes!

I want to fly into the mountains and land a little float plane on an isolated mountain lake... it's thoughts like this that really get me excited.

There is nothing else like it. Unfortunately there are very few (if any) organizations that will do private float plane rentals of any sort, much less for this type of flying, unless you are taking an advanced float course.

**Does the pilots license get babes?**

I met my future wife two weeks into my training...

**Are the costs at McMurray Aviation too expensive?**

More expensive than when I did my training, but they don't seem out of line with other schools.

[YOWza]

Does the pilots license get babes?

If you're broke after every flight it's going to be babe repellant.

[moocow]

WTF?! I never hooked up via flight school. CZBB is a sausage-fest! A regular PPL is the way to go. If you're going to drop 5K to 8K may as well save a bit more and get a proper license with more stretch in case you want to add endorsement on top, like night VFR.

[hairdo]

By everything that you've said you want to do, it sounds to me like it would be best for you to get your PPL. Much more usable, since you can attach ratings like night, Multi, or IFR, if you so desire. RPP is going to limit you to Day VFR only, and only one passenger in a 4-seater or smaller (172ish). And the instrument training, as previously mentioned, could save your butt.

If you fly fairly regularly (5-10 hours a month), it might actually be cheaper since you won't have to go and do extra checkflights with instuctors. Not only that, but the practice will keep you fresh. 5-10 hours a month will cost you $650-1300 though.

Is a PPL more expensive (plan on about $9-10000)? Yes. Does it sound more suited to what you want? Yes.

[LousyFisherman]

Get your PPL, if you are in Fort Mac plan on $15k not $10K
That way when it takes $12-13K you'll be happy.

ifp's wife chose him because he is a mechanic, not because he is a pilot..

YMMV
LF

[greenhat]

Wow thanks so much for all the responses, I've done some calculations, and
after all my expenses and 35% of my income into savings, I'll have 700 dollars a month
to burn. Although I have not factored in buying a car. And paying for gas to
and from the airport. So it seems I would be able to do about 6 hours a month,
Provided they pick me up for the lessons($50 cab ride from town). I'm gonna go
For the PPL based on your responses.

[iflyforpie]

I would advise setting aside a PPL fund first rather than doing $700 per month. This is what I did when starting out, since I used far more per month than my disposable cash allowed me to do. After paying taxes, doing your dual and solo cross-countries would probably wipe out your monthly fund. Even $2000-$3000 can be a good reserve fund so you can go hard when the weather is good and exercises are more hour intense, and you can keep building it with your monthly disposable cash.

It is best if you can fly two times a week since you will spend less time in review each lesson. Most PPL candidates wind up far exceeding the minimum hours because of infrequent flying.

As for cars, do what most pilots do and buy a hunk o' junk for >$1000 and drive it 'till it dies...

[moocow]

+1 for iflyforpie

I end up $14,000 on flight only, excluding supplies and transportation to and from CZBB. I got very rusty because both the instructor and I went on vacation for 2 months and then I got cap in by Vancouver's winter weather.

At the average rate of $150 solo and $180 dual, you will get less than 6 hours a month factoring transportation cost. When it comes to dual x-country, you're looking at around $500 to $600 for the flight and you have to do it more than once.

[polacco]

Hi All,
Having gone the RPP route, i'll try to offer a bit of perspective.

Limitations vs PPL:
1) No aircraft limitations, but only one passenger. Useful if, for example, you have to load a 172 with camping equipment for your trip.
2) No endorsments, except float and tailwheel.
3) Valid only in Canada.

In the end, it all depends on what you want to do and what your budget is. I was never interested in any endorsments except for tailwheen and float. All I wanted to do is to be able to take a plane for a joyride every now and then. The RPP suits me just fine for that purpose and I saved probably $2500 in the process, and I did a lot of extra flying that I didn't have to. My dream is to one day own a Piper Cub, I doubt i'll be doing a lot of IFR with that.

Also, you don't have to decide right now. I recommend that you do your medical and pass the written for the PPL. The first part of training is the same for both licenses and it will give you more of an idea of what you want to do. If you do chose the RPP route, I recommend that you do at least an hour of IFR (or more depending on how it goes), it really might save your life in the future. I believe that the PPL written exam is valid for 2 years, so even if you get a RPP, you can move up to PPL within 2 years without re-writing.

Cheers

[BTD]

Hi All,
Having gone the RPP route, i'll try to offer a bit of perspective.

Limitations vs PPL:
1) No aircraft limitations, but only one passenger. Useful if, for example, you have to load a 172 with camping equipment for your trip.
2) No endorsments, except float and tailwheel.
3) Valid only in Canada.

A review of RPP privileges might be in order:

401.22 The holder of a pilot permit - recreational - aeroplane may, under day VFR, act as

(a) pilot-in-command of an aeroplane of a class and type in respect of which the permit is endorsed with a rating where

(i) the aeroplane is a single-engined aeroplane that is not a high-performance aeroplane,
(amended 2001/03/01; previous version)

(ii) the aeroplane is designed, or is authorized by a type certificate, to carry a maximum of four persons, and

I would generally recommend the PPL as well. However, it is the attitude towards flying that will make you a good pilot. I taught one fellow towards an RPP a bunch of years ago, who was often better than some of the CPL and PPL pilots out there.

BTD

[polacco]

Thanks for the correction BTD.
Is high performance defined as more than 200HP?

I would say that in general RPP holders are looked down upon as inferior pilots, but as BTD said, it's the attitude that wil define you.

[hairdo]

Thanks for the correction BTD.
Is high performance defined as more than 200HP?

I would say that in general RPP holders are looked down upon as inferior pilots, but as BTD said, it's the attitude that wil define you.

CAR 400.01

"high-performance aeroplane", with respect to a rating, means
(amended 2001/03/01; no previous version)

(a) an aeroplane that is specified in the minimum flight crew document as requiring only one pilot and that has a maximum speed (Vne) of 250 KIAS or greater or a stall speed (Vso) of 80 KIAS or greater, or

(b) an amateur-built aeroplane that has a wing loading greater than that specified in section 549.103 of the Airworthiness Manual; (avion à hautes performances)

[lionheart27]

WTF?! I never hooked up via flight school. CZBB is a sausage-fest! A regular PPL is the way to go. If you're going to drop 5K to 8K may as well save a bit more and get a proper license with more stretch in case you want to add endorsement on top, like night VFR.

CZBB is a sausage fest.
Those Boundry Bay boys keeping ya up at night? extra points for changing the oil moocow
Wouldn't it be cool to have a school full of Amazons women instructors? I wanna fly Wonder Women's Invisible Jet!

Yes go for the PPL. Maybe get a feel first for the A/C your flying. You'll know after your first solo
Restrictions in flying is a bummer and like everyone said Instrument time and endorsments can make the difference in you future down the road. I also suggest having a bit of a slush fund to get you started and keep you current.

Good luck with your training and remember fly safe and train hard. Your training can save your ass.

[Randleman]

**Does the pilots license get babes?**

John

..wow, if that's even one reason why you are interested, my advice is drop it now...you WILL be disappointed

[willing to fly]

I always thought that night flying was pretty good panty remover. Nothing better than circling around the giant phallus in downtown Toronto with the city light up in the background.

[moocow]

I always thought that night flying was pretty good panty remover. Nothing better than circling around the giant phallus in downtown Toronto with the city light up in the background.

Can you go test that out? I can't afford to test out the theory myself at the moment.

[Dakota]

Oh yes YOU WILL get babes!!.. This is a fact....
They'll just all happen to be ugly and fat.. but hey, if you like that then move ahead:)

As an instructor with 25 yrs in the biz... do the PPL! and by pass the RPP.