The "best" school

[Pirate Pilot]

There are always lots of inquiries on this forum regarding flight schools for all sorts of reasons i.e. location, cost, quality of instruction, quality and quantity of aircraft available, etc.
From the standpoint of the employer be it the owner, HR director, CP, or just the guy in charge of hiring if you have put out a pilot job posting and you get a bunch of applicants that all seem to have the same qualifications does the question of where did you do you training ever come up? I realize all licences, ratings, endorsements, flight tests, etc are the same for everyone but if the applicant tells you "I did all my training at XXX flight school" does this put him or her over the top?
I am sure just about every FTU in Canada will tell their commercial students that their particular school is held in high regard by various commercial operations and job oppourtunities are available after completion but is there a "top ten" list ?
Please don't name them if there is....

[hairdo]

I frankly don't belive any particular school is going to help you there, unless it's for an instructor position at a school, in which case FTU's generally prefer their former students (know the people). Who you know in the company is going to get the job.

[Pirate Pilot]

I'm sorry, I apologize...It was an academic question. I am way too old, cranky, and don't play well with the other children to be involved in commercial aviation. I was just wondering from a hiring standpoint. Its like years ago in the restaurant business if the applicant had on his resume that he had worked at "McDonalds" (example only) and had stayed on for at least 2 years he went to the top of the pile.
Or, if there is an "ole boys network" where the potential employer phones the school mentioned in the application and asks for a recommend on the applicant. Does this happen?

[Hedley]

No one cares what FTU or school you went to.

The only thing that matter is your hours, and who you know at the company.

[loopa]

Hedley, I think that on a national scale, it might not really matter which school you went to. But I'm going to leave the benefit of the doubt to my post in the hands of your experience, let me know what you think?

The Chief Flight Instructor at the school I presently instruct out of is very well known across the country. The flight school he, along with 2 of the other owners have developed actually has reflected in the reputation of company preference when it comes to hiring. Because of his reputation, companies that instructors always look to move onto after the magic 1000 or 1500 hours, always call him to see if he has anybody ready to move on when hiring exists - that is obviously if they can't internally fill anybody. From what I've gathered, every single person that has moved on from this school has moved on based on companies requesting our CFI's recommendation. The interview in order to get hired here involved a good 3 hour session, where if I hadn't read the gouges on the personality based questions airlines focus so heavily on, I would of probably pooched the interview. As well, the technical side of inquiries were thorough as well, such as "Explain what the relationship is between the tip of coffin corner and mach tuck?" The questions were heavy duty, but it felt like they were very serious about hiring candidates that fit the entire flight school staff, and in some unofficial way, hiring candidates that they would recommend in the future when time comes for movement.

Long story short, I'd like to think you can choose a flight school that can help steer the path of your career. Look at where most top graduates of college grads end up? Now I'm not necessarily agreeing with it being a good idea (let's not start a college flame war), but I do think that choice of school does shape up into how you might go abouts the industry - and in a very important case, what attitude you have about the industry. Are you going to show up looking for a ramp - > pilot employment at a corporate company dressed in shorts and a beard cause that's the influence that the flight school might of shown you? Or are you going to show up, showing dedication to your job (even though you're a low timer), with a professional prospect towards employment? On the other hand, are you going to show up with Epauletts and a pilot shirt when looking for work in the bush as a dockhand/float pilot? So I think the selection of flight school plays a key role in influencing your attitude towards the industry. But common sense plays a role as well!

It's like picking one star out of millions when it comes to the choice of flight schools. The best way is to research the school, staff, CFI, owners by talking to people in the industry. You will quickly gather where to go, and where not to go.

Hedley, I'm waiting for your insight... Thanks !

[Hedley]

The Chief Flight Instructor at the school I presently instruct out of is very well known across the country

I would file that under "who you know". If you apply to a company, and the CP knows the CFI at your school, and pings him about you and gets a favourable response, that would definitely help.

It would also help is if the CP was your uncle

When a company is hiring, generally they are looking for a combination of technical competence and personality. An internal reference is gold - someone with some credibility who will put his credibility on the line and say, "Yeah, he's a good stick, and a good guy". No one wants to hire a weak pilot who's a pain in the ass. It's really that simple.

And oh yeah, you have to have enough hours to satisfy regulatory/customer/insurance minimums, keeping in mind that most places don't want a permanent FO - they generally want you to be able to move to the left seat ASAP, so probably you need the hours for that.

It's all hours, and who you know.

This is why I feel so sad about people paying $$$ for "integrated" courses, which is french for "ftu saves money because you get fewer hours", and hours are what matter.

[MichaelP]

No one cares what FTU or school you went to.

I do!

All schools have reputations for one thing, and that is good and bad, and in between.

Then there's observation.
All of us observe other schools in the local area and their habits, how their students treat the aeroplane, and how much courtesy their students renters and instructors have for other aviators.

An example:
We had a student join us from AB...

I flew from that AB field once with an instructor there who during the runup turned the alternator off and on to test it.
This is a brilliant way of putting a voltage spike through the avionics, it tests their ability to withstand such things I suppose.
Me, I want my avionics to last as long as possible with the minimum chance of failure.

This student was learning there and had been taught to turn the alternator off during the runup and then on again.
His own instructor in AB wondered about whether this action was indeed a good thing to do, but followed the school procedure.

Here, that habit had to be stopped... From my experience at the AB airport I expected it, and I took corrective action before the student did his first runup in one of our aeroplanes.

None of us is without criticism though.
At an airport meeting it was mentioned that the Diamonds were taxying too fast sometimes... so as CFI I had to do something about it.
Perhaps a good school is one that continually monitors what its people are doing and anticipates and rectifies situations.

All schools have a turn over in staff, and the character of a school will change with new people. It's up to the CFI to ensure that the effect of such changes is positive rather than negative.

As far as the airlines are concerned, they will notice the quality of the people they get from this school and that school.
In this regard the flying school should look to producing quality people, but that is sometimes at odds with these people as they are 'customers'!
It's not easy for hard pressed schools to be ethical when the margins are so low.
It's not easy for a school to demand higher standards than just passing the exams, only just!

Edited to remove name of AB airport!

[Hedley]

After some thought, I sit corrected.

Clearly the best flight school in Canada is the one that pays it's flight instructors $100/hr

Oh God, you're saying, Hedley is on crack again. Where, oh where will this sad spiral-out-of-control end up this time? A brothel in Tijuana? Or worse, Detroit city hall?

Hear me out. Let's say a flight instructor flies 600 hrs/yr. With 2 weeks of vacation, that's 600/50 = 12 hrs per week. Working 5 days per week, that's an average of 12/5 = 2.4 hrs per day, or three instructional flights of 0.8 hrs each. When you think about (unpaid) PGI, pre-flight brief, and post-flight brief - you know, they way we're supposed to do it - that's not far off, as an average.

Taking my previous crack-induced number of $100/hr x 600 hrs/yr = $60,000 per year.

That's actually not an unreasonable salary for a competent, career instructor, is it? I know, if pigs had wings ...

[LousyFisherman]

After some thought, I sit corrected.

Clearly the best flight school in Canada is the one that pays it's flight instructors $100/hr
Snip......
Hear me out. Let's say a flight instructor flies 600 hrs/yr. With 2 weeks of vacation, that's 600/50 = 12 hrs per week. Working 5 days per week, that's an average of 12/5 = 2.4 hrs per day, or three instructional flights of 0.8 hrs each. When you think about (unpaid) PGI, pre-flight brief, and post-flight brief - you know, they way we're supposed to do it - that's not far off, as an average.

Taking my previous crack-induced number of $100/hr x 600 hrs/yr = $60,000 per year.
snip......

Why should they be paid by flight hour? Just use standard job guidelines. Employees must be at the FTU 6 - 8 hours/day = 150 hrs/month * 12 = 1800 hrs/year.

At $30/hour we come to $54000/year.
There should be no such thing as unpaid work!

Much more sensible way to calculate it IMHO.
I assume the work load decreases at some point in the year, so at that time you layoff your worst, and hire again when you need them.

Of course I don't work in aviation so YMMV.

LF

[Shiny Side Up]

I assume the work load decreases at some point in the year, so at that time you layoff your worst, and hire again when you need them.

The flaw in your plan of course. Planning employment around laying people off is a generally a poor way to run things if the quality of the employee is important. Who do you decide to lay off if you got a team of good people? It impacts morale and performance of employees. Perfectly acceptable if you're running something like a construction business or a seasonal retail where people aren't interested in a career and are more likely interested in short term employment for a few bucks.

How to go about paying instructors is an old topic though, there are better ways and poorer ways to go about it. Aviation after all is not a nine to five job so needs a specific solution when it comes to employment rather than a general one.

[MichaelP]

I wrote this on the Tailwheel thread but it belongs here:

Yesterday we were getting some feedback from eastern Canada from our foreign students who had been training there.

To say I'm stunned would be an understatement.
I do not want to write what I have learned on here... I did and then I thought again about it.

I'll be discussing what I have learned with the proper authorities.

The argument is between people who try to do what we do ethically and those who cut corners and operate unethically.

There are three schools that I believe are doing an ethical job of training the students in question.

When it comes to training foreign students we are creating a global reputation for flight training for Canada.
Do it unethically and ultimately we do all of ourselves a disfavour.

[loopa]

Do it unethically and ultimately we do all of ourselves a disfavour.

I'd like to get your insight on why certain schools might treat it unethically? Not that it is a justification for the right thing to do. But I think both you and I know why the idea of "not caring" has started to become the case with some international students.

Just to name an example, as soon as the word "Indian Contracts" come up, most of the people in the FTU business I know starts sweating cold.

I know you have international students Michael, what are your insights? Thanks!

[Hedley]

why certain schools might treat it unethically?

Because money (short term gain) is more important to them, than doing the right thing?

Here's a dilemma: let's say a school can operate ethically and have a 10% IRR. Or, it can shave some corners and have an IRR of 20%. How many operators would choose door #2, if they think they can legally get away with operating in a grey area?