Freelance instruction hookup website?

[Shiny Side Up]

Been thinking about this idea since someone mentioned something here the other day. So far nothing has turned up in my search of the internets, so I'll run it by people here.

Does there exist a website for hooking up owner/students with freelance instructors? If not, does anyone here think it would be useful or do they think they would use it? I have a few ideas that might fly on such a thing but not sure if it would be worth it.

[ScurvyDog]

I've been freelance instructing for the past 10 years usually on complex se or multi for private owners. I have always met my clients just by word or mouth or referrals. I think it would be very helpful having a resource like a web database for these owners to use. The trick will be to have a way to check credentials to filter out the 300 hour pilots who are just trying to get multi time or ifr.

[Shiny Side Up]

The trick will be to have a way to check credentials to filter out the 300 hour pilots who are just trying to get multi time or ifr.

Part of the purpose of such a site would be that one could look up who else the instructor had worked with for references. Student/customers could possibly rate them as well. Another possibility would be to have the ability for an "online PTR" where if one was concerned about the quality of instruction they were getting they could get a second opinion.

[Cat Driver]

This is an excellent idea.

Make membership for the instructors depend upon quality of instruction determined by having to demonstrate they are far above average to be in the group...sort of a franchise arrangement.

That would eliminate about 90% of the instructors out there.

[ScurvyDog]

Good idea sunny side. I also like the idea cat driver had about membership. It would help cover some costs of setup and also shows some commitment on the instructors part.

[Cat Driver]

Once such a group of instructors become organized the first item on their agenda is set a fair price for their instructing time.

Say around one hundred dollars an hour in the airplane.

[Hedley]

SSU: do it! I see some great domain names are still available.

Freelance instructors would email you a resume and $$$ and in return, you would post their name, brief summary of qualifications, and location, on your website. It wouldn't have to be anything fancy, really - just one page with entries that look something like:

John Smith / CPL / 1200TT / Class 2 / MIFR / $50/hr / Toronto, Ont / www.website.com / js@email.com

[Big Pistons Forever]

This is an excellent idea.

Make membership for the instructors depend upon quality of instruction determined by having to demonstrate they are far above average to be in the group.

So how exactly would that work ?

[Hedley]

I would be happy with 1000 TT as minimum qualification, in addition to the basic CPL/class 3 instructor.

I would also suggest a minimum rate of $50/hr, and many instructors would have higher rates. For example, I charge $50/hr for tailwheel instruction, and $100/hr for aerobatic instruction. I know . charges more than that for his specialty instruction.

Hopefully this is not a "race to the bottom" website, rather someplace where you find quality instruction from experienced instructors.

[Av_Av]

I think this is a great idea, and long overdue. Now that it's been mentioned, I'm kind of kicking myself for not thinking of it first! I also support the comments made so far: minimum qualifications above TC requirements, minimum charging rates, and a student feedback mechanism.

I would be happy with 1000 TT as minimum qualification, in addition to the basic CPL/class 3 instructor.

I would agree that 1000TT is adequate, but a simple Class III? You can get a Class III with 100 hours in the airplane and no classroom experience. There needs to be some additional requirements in the form of (for example): instructional hours, solo recommends, groundschool instruction. Personally, I'd take it a step further and require experience as a Class III. unsupervised experience is very valuable (I know, Class IV's are often unsupervised, but in principle they're not supposed to be).

Say around one hundred dollars an hour in the airplane.

I think $100/hr is a bit steep (not saying you're not worth it, Cat, but the customer base is only so big and so rich:)). But if you're talking about charging for airplane time and not your ground time, it makes a bit more sense. Hedley's suggestion of $50/hr as a minimum seems more realistic to me. With an agreed upon minimum, people could charge whatever they think the market will bear, as long as it's at or over the min. If you can get $100/hr, more power to you!

Hopefully this is not a "race to the bottom" website, rather someplace where you find quality instruction from experienced instructors.

+1. But in order for that to work and last, you need a minimum charge rate, and you definitely need a student feedback mechanism.

There is one point of caution, however. As soon as you/we start to organize, someone who owns an FTU will complain to TC, and TC will claim that we are offering a commercial air service without an OC. Yes, it's BS, but how much will it cost to prove that in court? All the ducks will have to be in a row before going public (or live with the website), and we'll have to be ready for a legal fight.

[Hedley]

TC will claim that we are offering a commercial air service without an OC

No airplane, no OC required. This is just a list of independent pilots.

[Av_Av]

TC will claim that we are offering a commercial air service without an OC

No airplane, no OC required. This is just a list of independent pilots.

I agree. Completely. Now try to convince TC. I believe you've had some prior experience in this arena.

[Pirate Pilot]

HO boy, I love this....remember my rant from a month or two ago regarding training.....So now we have "Scurvy Dog" suggesting a web-site advertising quality instruction but we must "filter out the 300 hr. people that are just trying to get their multi-engine or IFR ratings" Who do you think are able to pay you?
Cat Driver had it correct in his repy...."That would eliminate about 90% of the instructors out there"
I have no problem paying $100. per hr. for "quality" instruction. If an instructor has to tell me they are going to offer me "quality" instruction I consider that statement to be on par with the realtor or the car salesman that says to me "let me be completely honest with you" (not to disparage either realtors or car salespersons)
I can afford the price of proper training as well as the purchase and maintainance of a light twin or complex single engine aircraft.
I achieved my PPL in March of 1970. I have a multi rating. I have been flying around the interior of B.C. for what? 40 yrs.? Still flyin....
We have "our guy" Word of mouth is "EVERYTHING" Need a checkride? just call.....PPC? just call....goin' turbine?....just call.....didja study? don't waste my time and your money?? Lets go through the POH on that aircraft! Ya need to know that, I'm not kiddin' No pressure, just common sense. Charges for flight time.....we drink coffee for hours...what about this...or that?....
There are a whole bunch of Canadian GA pilots that have their own aircraft and the money, the time, and the diligence to achieve their training objectives but what they lack is a comprehensive program by a free-lance instructor. Am I incorrect in my thinking?
edit: I re-read the post....sorry, I thought Scurvy Dog was talking about students but on review I assume he was talking about instructors....My Bad...SORRYYYYY

[Av_Av]

If an instructor has to tell me they are going to offer me "quality" instruction I consider that statement to be on par with the realtor or the car salesman that says to me "let me be completely honest with you"

You're exactly right. That's why the feedback mechanism is so important. Before you hire an instructor, you don't need to hear that instructor tell you how wonderful he is. You need to hear it from prior students.

[ScurvyDog]

Pirate, just to clarify my coments. I routinely have been instructing in a Malibu, C414,C421 and a Navajo doing everything from insurance checkouts to night and ifr ratings. I found it hard to believe someone with a ac like above doesn't have a night rating and is VFR only but it does happen. The owners of these ac didn't feel comfortable going to there local FTU because of how they get treated and lack of experience. My point is a 300 hr wonder souldnt be instructing in a machine like that with out some experience under their belt.

Just as a side note, when instructing on the above machines, my normal rate is $85/hour. Often in course of training clients want to do long trips with overnights and in that case it's my own room, and all expenses paid. Since I'm a bit of a drive to the airports that these ac are based I also have a 2 hour minimum lesson, but most of these people want to fly for longer flights or trips anyway.

[KK7]

I think this is an excellent idea! Right now I'm not in a position to offer freelance instruction, but I would like to some day in my free time. I think I used to be a very good instructor, but knowing what I know now I think I have far more to offer. $50/hr as a minimum is reasonable, but definitely the very bottom. Considering that students already pay in the range of $50/hr for instruction at a run of the mill flight school, a quality, experienced freelance instructor should be charging more than this. It would also be interesting if this really takes off, what the effect would be in the instructing industry and if more students would switch from flight schools to freelance instruction. I think over time people will find that although they pay more by the hour freelance, they accomplish their goals in far less time than at a flight school, plus more flexibility and customization of their training.

As a suggestion, I would put in some sort of code of ethics or standard practices that instructors on this site must follow. If it is found that instructors are not following these standard practices, then their profile is removed from the website. It sort of ensures a minimum standard that will be followed. The profile must also list what facilities the instructor has to offer, for example if the instructor has access to a briefing room or classroom, or will it be up to the student to find a place. I realize there might be some complications with everyone agreeing to a standard, and how one would investigate if instructors aren't following it, but I think it is important to make sure the site doesn't turn into a race to the bottom.

I know this is looking far off into the future, but I think that this sort of site could have the potential to revolutionize the training industry if it really takes off and is successful. Time will tell if you go through with it!

[Cat Driver]

To become accepted in the pool of instructors one will have to not only produce recommendations that can be checked as to their quality of instruction but pass a check ride with a designated instructor check pilot approved by the group.

If I were doing a check ride on a flight instructor I would have said instructor start with attitudes and movements, as that seems to be rushed through in flight instruction far to often.

[KK7]

To become accepted in the pool of instructors one will have to not only produce recommendations that can be checked as to their quality of instruction but pass a check ride with a designated instructor check pilot approved by the group.

If I were doing a check ride on a flight instructor I would have said instructor start with attitudes and movements, as that seems to be rushed through in flight instruction far to often.

I agree with the idea and principle of this check ride, except that I think from a practical perspective it's not workable simply because of money and geography. Money because now one must spend a fair bit of money to find an aircraft, pay for time on it and arrange to go up with a check pilot, presumably pay this check pilot too since it would be unfair for the check pilot otherwise. Geography because we're talking about a wide area across the country, you'd need a very high number of these check pilots spread out to be able to cover people.

As I said, I agree in principle, but I think ultimately it would lead to the demise of the website. I think if I had to go through this much effort to have a profile on this website, I'd opt to just go it alone instead. You might say well then I might not be serious enough or whatever, but ultimately it doesn't help students find quite a few very qualified freelance instructors who may opt out simply because of the effort required to advertise their service when often word of mouth or other advertising methods also work.

Personally, I think this website is win-win: Instructors have a centralized location to advertise their services, and students have a centralized place to find freelance instructors. You need both, if you can't attract a fair number of instructors, then not as many students will come here looking for instructors. If you can't attract the students, then not as many instructors will want to pay money or conduct a check flight to advertise on this website.

[5x5]

This may be a good idea, but there are a few questions come to mind. I'm not stating them as roadblocks, but just as questions I think any plans to proceed should address.

Any body have any idea how many freelance instructors there are out there? And how many are doing it by choice and how many because they can't find a job at a school? Setting up and running a website/association like this is not a small undertaking and is there a community of sufficient size to support it?

Also, for the freelancers out there, how many need this kind of service? Are you having trouble finding customers now? How much structure and overhead (checkrides, minimum standards, etc) would freelancers accept or agree to, since by their nature aren't they rather individualistic?

And perhaps trying to set and maintain some sort of quality control puts the owner of the website into an implied position of responsibility when there is a disgruntled customer.

I'm interested in seeing what comes of this.

[Big Pistons Forever]

This may be a good idea, but there are a few questions come to mind. I'm not stating them as roadblocks, but just as questions I think any plans to proceed should address.

Any body have any idea how many freelance instructors there are out there? And how many are doing it by choice and how many because they can't find a job at a school? Setting up and running a website/association like this is not a small undertaking and is there a community of sufficient size to support it?

Also, for the freelancers out there, how many need this kind of service? Are you having trouble finding customers now? How much structure and overhead (checkrides, minimum standards, etc) would freelancers accept or agree to, since by their nature aren't they rather individualistic?

And perhaps trying to set and maintain some sort of quality control puts the owner of the website into an implied position of responsibility when there is a disgruntled customer.

I'm interested in seeing what comes of this.

First off I would be happy to check ride Cat Driver and see if he is "good enough" or falls in the 90 % category

But I personally would not have any interest in joining the proposed website. I am as busy as I want to be from word of mouth referrals and vet my students pretty closely. I am not interested in working with just anybody who phones me up and therefore my students would have to come with references which I do not think would be practicable.

IMO there are broadly speaking, two kinds of Freelance Instructors

1) Experienced, usually high time, professional pilots who do a bit of instructing on the side because they enjoy instructing and want to give something back to the industry.

2) F*uckups who by reason of personality/attitude and/or skill/knowledge deficits can't find a job at a FTU and are usually low time.

The best way to weed out the group 2 individuals is to have high and specific minimum experience requirements....like:

-For IFR you must have an ATPL, 500 hrs PIC IFR with approaches at, at least 20 different airports.

- For CPL you must have 1000 hrs with 500 hrs PIC in light piston aircraft in 702/703 operations

- For float you must have 1000 hrs in commercial operations

etc etc

The majority of freelance instructors I have met firmly fall into category 2; and if you got serious about quality control you would have such a small pool of eligible instructors that it would not be worth the effort to set up a dedicated webpage.

I have an alternate suggestion.

How about setting up a private board for Instructors. I have been thinking about this as a result of an insightful remark Cat Driver made in another post. He correctly pointed out that very few Class4/junior Instructors ever post on this forum. Almost all posts are by very experienced instructors. I think the main reason is new instructors are intimidated by this and are afraid of looking stupid on a public forum. If there were a private forum restricted to registered members who would have to declare they are currently working as full or part time instructors, then I could see an opportunity for fuller discussion of flying training tips and techniques, job opportunities , good bad employers, pay, etc etc. More general philosophical discussions on flying training would stay on this forum.

To return to this discussion the private instructors forum, could be augmented by a "request for freelance instruction" portal, where a person would fill in a template which would then be readable only by private forum members. This could then become a clearing house for freelance instructors who might be interested in taking on students. There would be no quality assurance simply a big disclaimer that would detail the recommended experience levels for each type of training and a list of questions the student should ask the instructor before starting training.

[photofly]

I think the main reason is new instructors are intimidated by this and are afraid of looking stupid on a public forum.

It's also possible that they're afraid of the scathing attitudes and posts of some of the more regular contributors; exactly the kind of people who would be in an instructors-only forum.

Or, since nobody is required to post under their own names (and therefore has nothing to be scared of) perhaps they just don't have anything they want to ask or contribute.

"request for freelance instruction"

As in, Dear God-like instructors, please consider my humble beseechings as a possible client who'd like to throw money your way if you consider me worthy of your attentions"? I can see that being a great hit. Don't you think that people offering money for tuition would like to have at least a semblance of feeling that they're the customer, and they're choosing the service provider? Freelance instructors are not exactly rare or exalted creatures.

[Shiny Side Up]

There has been a lot of response to this idea, and a lot of interesting points brought up. How one would go about this is a big question and what the real intent here is.

This may be a good idea, but there are a few questions come to mind. I'm not stating them as roadblocks, but just as questions I think any plans to proceed should address.

Some of your points hit on the major areas in question so I'll start here.

Any body have any idea how many freelance instructors there are out there? And how many are doing it by choice and how many because they can't find a job at a school? Setting up and running a website/association like this is not a small undertaking and is there a community of sufficient size to support it?

Whether it will be worth while really depends on how much usuage it will really get, but to be honest the idea of the site is less to help instructors get work and more as a resource to students. There are probably more private owners out there looking for training help in one way or another, than there are freelance instructors needing help finding clients.

Also, for the freelancers out there, how many need this kind of service? Are you having trouble finding customers now? How much structure and overhead (checkrides, minimum standards, etc) would freelancers accept or agree to, since by their nature aren't they rather individualistic?

Since the website would be more customer driven for the most part it would be free for the instructors - or at least most of the features. It would also for the most part be free for the customers/students as well.

And perhaps trying to set and maintain some sort of quality control puts the owner of the website into an implied position of responsibility when there is a disgruntled customer.

This is a big question which really is oing to be governed by how much one can put into the website and of course costs will increase. Not to say that having a certain ammount of QC wouldn't be good, but the logistics of it would be too onerus to support the market. Personally I'd be inclined with the simplest option in which it largely becomes buyer beware for the students, and there is simply a list of contacts that gets maintained and updated.

The idea that FTUs and TC would have a beef wouldn't hold if one was running it that way, it would hold more in common with a dating website than a Flight training organization - with much of the same inherent risks. While there would be oversight on what gets on to the website, the students and freelancers will be free to hash out whatever arrangements they wish. The website merely facilitates them getting together. Features most prominent would be the database of freelancers witha search engine, possibly a messaging system to facilitate contact.

Hedley's concern about it being a race to the bottom in terms of quality is a big one that concerns me, because I'd hate to see it turn to that. Without great costs (and finding a way to invlve check pilots, airplanes and whatnot - which substantially ups the overhead of running such a enterprise) involved, A high ammount of quality assurance would be onerus, it would work best at the opposite end, entirely free market.

[FlightSolutions]

How about setting up a private board for Instructors.

This sounds like a good idea. Do they not have something like this in the States?

As for the just website idea. I think every freelance instructor should be allowed to advertise their services with the ability for customers to rate and write a review. Otherwise, you're getting into a bigger can of worms then just a place to advertise freelance instructional services.

[Shiny Side Up]

To return to this discussion the private instructors forum, could be augmented by a "request for freelance instruction" portal, where a person would fill in a template which would then be readable only by private forum members. This could then become a clearing house for freelance instructors who might be interested in taking on students. There would be no quality assurance simply a big disclaimer that would detail the recommended experience levels for each type of training and a list of questions the student should ask the instructor before starting training.

This would be closer to what I think would work simplest and best. Those not interested in looking for more freelance work of course would not use such a resource. As I said before, it should be a student resource rather than an instructor one.

[Big Pistons Forever]

perhaps they just don't have anything they want to ask or contribute.

I find that hard to believe as I get asked lots of questions from new instructors at my home airport, and I can remember my initial struggles with the reality of instructing after I first got my instructor rating.

BTW do have an instructor rating and are/have worked as a flight instructor ?