Stop The Puppy Mills!

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Doc
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Stop The Puppy Mills!

Post by Doc »

Okay, enough is surely enough?
Ran into a young pilot today. I was just headed out, and didn't spend any time talking to him.
Typical victim of the "money grab" that has become flight training.
Out on a Road Trip, without a prayer.
215 hours. Multi, class 1 (or whatever the frick it's called these days) Moncton graduate.
Out forty-five thousand dollars, trying to land a job that's, let's face it folks, just isn't there.
First line on resume. Seeking ramp attendant position.
Asked me about instructing. Said he just didn't have another ten thousand dollars to spend.
Share with me. Exactly what do these "puppy mills" promise these kids?
What good is a multi-IFR if these kids are going to be slaves for two years before getting a flying job.
Deer in the headlights.
Now they can fly, kind of, sort of, maybe. But, there really are NO jobs for them.
It's like seeing a batch of refugees. Who've paid through the nose to follow a dream.
Every magazine has all these colour glossy photos of classes full of smiling politically correct, racially mixed, uniformed "children" being led down the garden path by slick ads and snake oil salesmen.
Do we really need puppy mills? Have we ever? Will we ever?
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cdnpilot77
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Re: Stop The Puppy Mills!

Post by cdnpilot77 »

I have been continually amazed by this! Have you read the PPRUNE "wannabe" forums??? It is insane....the newest Easyjet scam £104,000!?!!? And there are people asking where to apply???? WTF?

Edited to add WTF and for spelling :)
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Last edited by cdnpilot77 on Wed Apr 13, 2011 7:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Big Pistons Forever
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Re: Stop The Puppy Mills!

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

My 02 cents

There is a lot of info on the the reality of the aviation industry on this and other fora. I can maybe see some rose colored glasses at the start of the PPL but by the time you start your build up time for the CPL you should have some clue about job prospects and how this industry works for low timers. I find it hard to muster up much sympathy for anybody who doesn't do his/her research before committing the big bucks and or is willfully blind to how things work for a low timer. I am continually amazed at students who put more time and effort researching their cell phone plans than choosing who which FTU to spend 10 K on for a MEIFR :roll:

Doc: If it makes you feel better, I will not do an instructor rating for a student that does not already have an instructing job lined up if they do well on the course.
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Re: Stop The Puppy Mills!

Post by iflyforpie »

Well, some of us spend way too much money on bingo and lottery tickets instead. :rolleyes:


Lots of times, job prospects are what you make of them. I found work as soon as the ink on my license was dry and I didn't even have to send out a resume, much less go on a road trip. My second job, I was called rather than me looking with less than 400 hours TT. Networking has always been the biggest factor for me.

People say that we need to cull the herd but the herd is self culling. Many choose but few are chosen.
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trey kule
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Re: Stop The Puppy Mills!

Post by trey kule »

Doc wrote
Every magazine has all these colour glossy photos of classes full of smiling politically correct, racially mixed, uniformed "children"
That is inaccurate... It should have read...

.....smiling politically correct, racially mixed AND Gender Balanced

Pretty much every add I see has a (usually blond) female...thats between 33 -50% of the people pictured in the add. Last I heard the actual number is closer to 15% in realitiy.....

those kind of politically correct. ads are what our north american modern world is all about.
Ever see the RCMP posters....T.T. & T?

Now, Ifly..so you think your situation was typical? Luck and being in the right place at the right time is sometimes what makes things work. The myth of the road trip, is, in my opinion , just that. tough on the young'ins. Cant just sit at home or carpet bomb companies, mail boxes. But despite the success sotries here, I relly wonder what percentage have success on road trips.

I dont know about others, but many years ago when I learned to fly,I did absolutely no research into it as a career...I just wanted to fly. Couldnt afford to do it myself and i understood there was a way, I could not only fly, but people would pay me....

Today it seems new pilots expect that they will have to continue to pay....


Except for some speciality flying like ag and floatin the future I expect pay will continue to spiral down..the pay scales of AC's proposed discount airline aught to be a hoot

Puppy mills will continue to exist as long as their is money to be made or political gain. Perhaps we in the other 9 provinces could help by adopting the similar policy to Quebec companies who hire only uniligual French pilots.. Speak any English..go elsewhere.-Might slow the big government puppy mill there down some
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warbirdpilot7
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Re: Stop The Puppy Mills!

Post by warbirdpilot7 »

What are all the new Class 4's going to do then?

As far as "roadtrips" go, if I were starting out, my vehicle gets 14MPG, its not practical. At todays gas prices, road trips are over............
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Last edited by warbirdpilot7 on Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Stop The Puppy Mills!

Post by Shiny Side Up »

Do we really need puppy mills? Have we ever? Will we ever?
To answer that one must remember that the current "puppy mill" setup hasn't changed since the days of the BCATP, when we were seeking to churn out pilots as quick as possible. We're still stuck with the same set up, which was designed to mass produce pilots. Aviation in genreal in some ways has fallen so far behind how the rest of the world works and certainly is the last bastion of "doing it the old way". Did we need the puppy mill? Possibly at one time. Do we still need it? Depends on your point of view. For those making money in the industry (by that I don't mean the line working crews) there is certainly an incentive to keep the old way running as usual. Not entirely accurate to say there is NO jobs, but rather that there are very few. High supply, low demand equals low wages for pilots.

Flight training in its current incarnation is customer/student driven not industry driven and one of the few sectors like that. Perhaps if one day the industry takes an active hand in the training world we might see an end to the puppy mill. Unlikely though since industry is largely happy with the way things are.
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Re: Stop The Puppy Mills!

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

warbirdpilot7 wrote:What are all the new Class 4's going to do then?
Going to the job that they have already lined up before they started the course; with the course being both training on how to instruct and an extended job interview. I remember one conversation I had with a Class 1 instructor at an FTU:

Me: How is your Instructor student doing

Class 1: He is a pain in the ass, I can't wait to finish him so I do not have to deal with him.

Me: So that means he is not going to work here?

Class 1: HELL NO

Me: So why are you doing his training

Class 1: He has lots of money to spend

:oops: :cry:
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ScudRunner
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Re: Stop The Puppy Mills!

Post by ScudRunner »

cdnpilot77 wrote:I have been continually amazed by this! Have you read the PPRUNE "wannabe" forums??? It is insane....the newest Easyjet scam £104,000!?!!? And there are people asking where to apply???? WTF?

Edited to add WTF and for spelling :)
have you looked in our own back yard, Coastal Pacific in Abbotsford BC is $95,000+ for their CPL program.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=71113

Oh and yes WTF!
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Doc
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Re: Stop The Puppy Mills!

Post by Doc »

Big Pistons Forever wrote:
warbirdpilot7 wrote:What are all the new Class 4's going to do then?
Going to the job that they have already lined up before they started the course; with the course being both training on how to instruct and an extended job interview. I remember one conversation I had with a Class 1 instructor at an FTU:

Me: How is your Instructor student doing

Class 1: He is a pain in the ass, I can't wait to finish him so I do not have to deal with him.

Me: So that means he is not going to work here?

Class 1: HELL NO

Me: So why are you doing his training

Class 1: He has lots of money to spend

:oops: :cry:
Thanks BPF...that, seems to be the bottom line....
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MichaelP
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Re: Stop The Puppy Mills!

Post by MichaelP »

I learned to fly because I wanted to learn something, to fulfil a dream after so many years of model aeroplanes, and I flew for recreation for many many years.
I gravitated to this job, I'd spent so many years doing it for free.

I am sad, very very sad that Canadians are losing their passion... Too many have to justify what they do by having a job at the end of it!
I didn't justify paying the higher costs of learning to fly in England by having a 'job' at the end of it. Indeed I spent most of my working life trying to earn a living outside of actually flying.
I spent my earnings on flying of course and toured around Europe during my summer holidays... Of course in England you got 25 days paid holiday a year (what's it one or two weeks if you're lucky here?).
I'd take the train to Redhill, pull a Jodel out of the hangar and bugger off on an adventure.

Then I worked in Chester, Airbus 310 stuff, earned a fat pay cheque I have never equaled in Canada and bought my first aeroplane.
Then I bought another, and then I left the aeroplane factory business and started my own flying business... Passion took over!
Now I'm here, and in BC, I can't be bothered with any other part of Canada (though I haven't seen the Maritimes yet).
BC is brilliant... We have all the fun stuff, there's a Citabria, a couple of Decathlons, a Chipmunk, and a floatplane for me to play with, as well as the school aeroplanes... I'm happy with my toybox.

Life is what you make of it... Some dreams are tragedies.

Aviation is a religion in a way for me, I have a vow of poverty whether I like it or not, I live in a cloister, and I live frugally. I save every penny to escape the winter misery here and go to Thailand where there are smiles, parties, festivals etc all the things people with a joy for life live for.
As far as Canada is concerned I live for the summers, the long days, the fantastic flying to be had.

I am of course sad for all those who choose to fly for perhaps wrong reasons... To make a high income as airline pilots perhaps. Those who have no need to fly Citabrias or SportStars, their eyes fixed on a CPL as soon as possible and with as little effort as possible.

Life has become too serious for Canadians I think.
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Re: Stop The Puppy Mills!

Post by Highflyinpilot »

[quote="Big Pistons Forever"]My 02 cents

I am continually amazed at students who put more time and effort researching their cell phone plans than choosing who which FTU to spend 10 K on for a MEIFR :roll:

[/quote]


But I love my cell phone, they have this thing called an iphone, WOW!!!!!! thats all I can say :smt040
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lownslow
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Re: Stop The Puppy Mills!

Post by lownslow »

"Woof woof woof," that's my other impression of a dog. (points if you know where that line is from)

Now that this puppy has grown up a little I guess I can look back on it now to see if it was a good idea or not. Like Michael, I just want to fly airplanes. I'm actually halfway decent at a bunch of other things that I could turn into a better paying career but I find flying is fulfilling in a way that nothing else I've tried really is. I met people I wouldn't have otherwise met and I think the whole experience has opened doors for me. At the very least, it hasn't hurt.

As for the rest of the pups in my litter, I see now that many of them have given up on flying but the vast majority are still pushing forward year after year and making the long slow climb like I am. The ones who have quit were mainly the guys who got into it for all the wrong reasons. I guess they didn't have supermodels throwing themselves at their feet at their first job on the dock at Moose Balls Falls or wherever so clearly it was the wrong career choice. Pity to put that much effort into something only to realise you don't like it. Looking at it that way I can't blame the schools, their ads are honest enough. If you don't do your research you deserve to be surprised. Caveat emptor.

LnS.
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MichaelP
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Re: Stop The Puppy Mills!

Post by MichaelP »

I was thinking about this last night and it occurred to me that some people spend thousands of dollars to get a degree in 'Political Science'... I always think of this as a rubbish degree for what worth to the nation is thousands of political science graduates?

There are a lot of ways to spend money in useless directions... One would hope that the learning is worth it ultimately whether the student uses the learning for the actual focus of that learning or not.

I always counsel students on the facts of becoming a Canadian Commercial Pilot, and the facts to do with become a ramp slave. I never want any student of mine to feel I led him/her up the garden path, so to speak.
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Re: Stop The Puppy Mills!

Post by RenegadeAV8R »

trey kule wrote:Perhaps we in the other 9 provinces could help by adopting the similar policy to Quebec companies who hire only uniligual French pilots.. Speak any English..go elsewhere.-Might slow the big government puppy mill there down some
Which companies in Quebec hire only unilingual french pilots?

Is "the big government puppy mill" the CQFA? The CQFA ( http://www.cqfa.ca ) brings only 35 new pilots to the market every year.
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Re: Stop The Puppy Mills!

Post by 2R »

The CQFA does turn out some good pilots,well at least the ones i flew with over the years.Just wish i could remember more french than how to order a cold beer and a roast beef sandwich.
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Re: Stop The Puppy Mills!

Post by MichaelP »

roast beef
Ay up! The French call us 'roast beef', the real French that is, of the English... I'm not sure what they'd call Canadians.
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Re: Stop The Puppy Mills!

Post by trey kule »

I have only heard French Canadians refer to English Canadian pilots..Some reference to a transponder maybe ...Mode Zee...or something like that.
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Re: Stop The Puppy Mills!

Post by iflyforpie »

trey kule wrote:I have only heard French Canadians refer to English Canadian pilots..Some reference to a transponder maybe ...Mode Zee...or something like that.
I remember walking out of the YVR terminal years ago (the Domestic one, but it was the terminal at the time), and some women from Quebec started mumbling to us 'WHY DO da engLISH PUT so maNY STAIRS?' I told her 'I think you got on the wrong plane, this isn't England, it's Canada!' :lol:
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Re: Stop The Puppy Mills!

Post by trey kule »

At the risk of being politically incorrect and subject to the wrath of the language Naxi's, Canada is the only country I know that has two national capitals..One in Ottawa, and the other if Quebec! Only one province that calls their provincial legislature the "NATIONAL" assembly. Only one province that has language laws that require one of our offical languages to be bigger on labels than the other....and know darn well Canada being a small market , all products imported will be labeled as such. Only one province that restricts the language you can educate your children in. Only one province where the CBC provides different news coverage (local news excepted). I could go on and on.

I just might...All the smug liberal thinkers in the rest of Canada crow about their open mindness, muti-cultural diveristy, and pat them selves on the back, while our Engish speaking Canadians in Quebec are officially and systematically being descriminated against. It is English, in our country that is under attack, and in danger of being lost.

Ok...my rant for the week. Back to the coffee pot. Oh, and dont be to hard on those French Canadian ladies...they generally have some attitudes and attributes that are extremely charming. Many good memories. Now....what was the topic again....??
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MichaelP
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Re: Stop The Puppy Mills!

Post by MichaelP »

In my memory Quebecois girls were certainly more charming than their Anglo Canadian counterparts...
I was in Montreal when the rights of English speaking Canadians (from Britain, Greece, Italy, Spain and many many other countries), were taken away. (I went to Vanier CEGEP!).
Under British law that would not have been legal. Indeed English law gave the Quebecois the freedom to keep their language inspite of their previous allegiance to the enemy France. I doubt that the Americans would have given them the same.

But this is well off topic... Situation normal I suppose.

Like Universities with Political Science departments I think the Puppy Mills need to continue to survive, but they need to be honest and ethical in their businesses.
They all need to put their prices up. What is offered is offered too cheap and this attracts lower standards.
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trey kule
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Re: Stop The Puppy Mills!

Post by trey kule »

Well, back to the topic Micheal.

The problem Canada faces, is the US flight schools. The big ones, are in areas with perfect year round weather, large populations for students, and thus the ability to compete at a much lower price when it comes to commerical pilot training. In the UK, for example, years ago, instuctors got paid very well, and the cost of training was astronomical due to high taxes etc. The result was the US folks pretty much wiped out the UK commercial training industry.

So where does that leave Canada? Well so far, many of the colleges, which I believe we are referring to with the canine references are heavily subsidized (not all of them). The result is they are using our tax dollars to subsidize competition. Sad but true. And once you start an organization they only get bigger, hungrier for more money, and evangalistic on why they should continue on their mission. The result, of course, is each province wants a school to turn out pilots for their province..Then each college wants to get on the taxpayer funded gravey train...And then private flight schools want to join up with solleges..It just continually expands , and as it is bascially all taxpayer subsidized, it will continue for awhile yet, I am afraid. I was always amazed years ago, when meeting were called at some of these colleges...10 or so people showing up for two hours to discuss something that cost aabout 1/4 or the cost of their salaries for two hours..But it came from a different budget area...Qiote amazing. No privately funded FTU, even if they had that many staff, could afford to have them sitting around in a walnut decorated board room disucssing some insignificatnt topics. Thats what the bar is for.

Is change possible? Yes. It would come around quite quickly if our various governments recognized that we are producing alot more pilots than required and cut off funding.. Would happen quickly.

But dont expect it...Those puppy mill folks understand that sucking up to the government to get their hands into the taxpayers pocket is as important as actually teaching flying.
Write your MP and MLA and demand they stop wasting taxpayer money on training people who will ultimately not join the workforce as there is not enough work for them.
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Re: Stop The Puppy Mills!

Post by Shiny Side Up »

MichaelP wrote: Under British law that would not have been legal. Indeed English law gave the Quebecois the freedom to keep their language inspite of their previous allegiance to Napolean. I doubt that the Americans would have given them the same.

But this is well off topic... Situation normal I suppose.
Not to be picky but French-Canadiens never held any alliegence to Napoleon. Being a Brit you should be ashamed for not being able to quote the fights historical...

They all need to put their prices up. What is offered is offered too cheap and this attracts lower standards.
Most do post prices, but I know what you're getting at. Often many gloss over a lot of the costs incurred. The big thing I see a lot of schools posting is the bare minimum course requirements and often don't include what's necessary time building wise. The old bait and switch.
Is change possible? Yes. It would come around quite quickly if our various governments recognized that we are producing alot more pilots than required and cut off funding.. Would happen quickly.
And that's only going to happen when a louder voice speaks up against it, or wants some change. There is no impetus from change from the largely ignorant student customer base nor from the schools themselves. The schools are either happy to play along and any attempt at change or improvement is not rewarded, only penalized. The rest of the industry needs to speak up.
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MichaelP
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Re: Stop The Puppy Mills!

Post by MichaelP »

As I alluded to, the Universities offer more than enough useless degree courses needed to overshadow our piddling little aviation business.
In the apartment building where I live I met a pilot who'd gone through the BCIT aviation program, spent twice as much as any CPL self starter would for the licence, and who earned more in his previous job as a mailman (USA Eng') than I do now with all of my experience.
He went off on a road trip to find a job with his little over 200 hours...
Do college programs produce better pilots with more likelihood of being hired by the airlines?
Maybe, maybe not, but certainly they can charge a proper amount for the training given.

You may think college programs rip the students off by charging them more and perhaps they are getting government subsidies as well, (more money coming in :D ), but look at it another way and the flying schools are ripping themselves off by trying to compete with the Americans who have lower cost, higher utilisation schools.

I'm all for schools charging a rate that keeps them from going bankrupt (as too many do here in Canada), while giving quality training by offering quality people, premises, and aircraft.

As for Britain. Agreed!
We lost nearly all of our training to the USA... Cheap cheap... But this has led to a lower standard of flying there as well.
I had to deal with this... Bright eyed three week minted PPLs coming to rent aeroplanes in Britain's wonderful weather having enjoyed limitless cloud free skies...
People for whom a few knots faster on approach was a good thing, as well as landing the aeroplane flat and never hearing the stall warner go off... Lots of bad habits and I grew to disagree with the three week PPL course (for the most part).
But.
I was in England last summer and I was pleasantly surprised at how vibrant the flying business was there.
Yes it costs 60% more to fly, but people were doing it and smiling as the credit card was swiped afterwards.
I saw a few of the EuroStars on the ground for a few minutes at a time between spending hours of fun in the air while I thought of our own $99 an hour SportStar sitting on the ground unloved except by a few who love to fly.
If Canadians loved to fly it would be wonderful for all of us in this business... But beyond hockey there's nothing Canadians love in this life as they take their work so seriously they forget there's a life to live!

Perhaps we should not whinge about the Puppy Mills, we should try to put some optimism and fun back into our own flying and attract others in this way.
French-Canadiens never held any alliegence to Napoleon
My apology, I read my Canadian History a long time ago...
In fact when Britain was fighting Napolean and those American rebels decided to have a go at us up here, the French Canadians fought the Americans.
BTW, Wolfe's sister married one of my ancesters according to my father who did the family tree...
I used to drive past Wolfe mounted on his horse whenever I drove to Biggin Hill!
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Re: Stop The Puppy Mills!

Post by angry inch »

Michael P... My dear fellow, you tirelessly speak about things such as, "Canadians forget there's a life to live", and lament about the "Canadian" flying culture, & just basically seem to have a lot of negative comments regarding aviation & aviators in my country. Well old boy, I'm here to tell you that there is an extremely vast and varied aviation community out there waiting for you to discover in Canada. I'm not just speaking of commercial operations here either. I'd venture to guess that compared to your jolly good countrymen back home, we Canadians have a pretty damn good showing per capita, as far as people who go out & fly for fun. It really sounds to me like you need to venture outside the bubble you find yourself in down there in the lower mainland & get out and discover what Canadian Aviation is really all about. CZBB is does not represent a good cross section of Canadian aviation.

A proud Canadian
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