Diamond Training Question - Soft Field

[2R]

Another attempt to pick the flyshit out of the pepper while ignoring the main course.
If you think that either technique would keep you safe in a soft field with an airplane with TINY wheels you have missed the point that BPF made.
A very accurate assessment whose truth is hiden in its simplicity.
KISS
Keep It Simple Stupid

Small wheeled airplanes belong on pavement, not fields that may have gopher holes bigger that your wheels.

[trey kule]

2r

Exactly what do gopher holes have to do with soft fields? I sometimes wonder how many instructors, or even pilots, actually know what a soft field is.

The tiny wheels remaining on pavement is true enough. But in flight training, one has to learn the technique for soft field take offs and landings, even if one does not really understand what a soft field is and thinks that grass or gopher holes are indicative of that!!! And one can demonstrate that they know the object and principles of soft field take offs and landings in a small wheeled plane that is not suitable for actually using soft fields.

It was the technique we were discussing. And you can practice the technique on nice hard pavement with a tiny wheeled airplane. Which actually I think might be better than an instructor induced fantasy that a nice solid piece of grass is soft, or that wet grass suddenly makes the ground super soft..slippery yes...not necessarily soft.

The whole issue of this thread was the technique being taught of full aft controls without doing any common sense thinking. Knowledge and thinking are good things.

One of the things that would help is if instructors would spend more time teaching the object and principles that apply, and then practice them without the "scenarios". This whole scenario thing is great....once a person has the knowledge and skills to make the plane fly the way they want.

Imagine how the new CPL is going to get through their initial interview with a CP if they talk about gopher holes being an indication of a soft field!

[hairdo]

Trey, your comments are appreciated. While I don't fly the 20s or fly onto soft fields (although I guess you could say I do in the winter with the snow) anymore, I still like to hear the methods/techniques of others. When all you've heard is one way to do things, you begin to think that is the only way to do things. Again, thanks.

2R, I know that tiny wheels don't belong on anything other than pavement or dry grass. I learned that the hard way by landing on a grass strip after several days of rain. The performance of the aircraft in those conditions was not exactly stellar (or me on that day either, obviously).

[Shiny Side Up]

Would it not stand to reason that some of us older retired or semi retired pilots remember enough about how to teach flying that we would be able to turn out very well trained and knowledgeable students?

By all means it would, but you have to remember the numbers of pilot trainees out there that we're talking about improving. To put it simply, we'd have to dragoon all the old experienced guys out there and put them into the flight training industry to make for a definite change. Lets face it, most retired/semi-retired pilots I know are pretty busy enjoying themselves to really put up with the headache of running a flight school - even if we could get rid of some of the baloney that TC additionally foists upon us to make our lives difficult.

To be honest, even with the small operation I run, maintaining the quality of the product is a challenge and a full time task. I can't directly (and no longer want to) do all the flight training myself after all. I can only imagine the difficulty with some of the larger operations out there - hence the ultimate cause of this thread and the associated arguement with the confusion of a simple subject of "soft fields".

To some degree, flying (and the associated teaching people to fly) is an artform. You can mass produce art, but masterpieces still come in unique form.

[trey kule]

Complete digression here SSU.

Are you old and over the hill if you actually know what you are referring to by the group W bench.?.. You can get anything that you want.....

[Shiny Side Up]

Hard to say. All I know is if you want to change flight training and stuff, you have to sing loud.

[Type4]

I hold nearly full back pressure on the controls until I start getting some airspeed on the roll. As the A/C picks up airspeed I start easing off the back pressure just a bit to prevent a tail strike on the Diamond. The T tail is kind of on/off in a soft field take off. Nothing, nothing, then bam. Just be ready to control that nose when it wants to pitch up.

[YOWza]

There's nothing wrong with doing it either of the 2 ways suggested earlier. This plane will perform well on grass with both techniques. It obviously wasn't built for real rough strips, it's a docile trainer and a Sunday flier.

[straightpilot]

Never understood why people put a t-tail on a prop airplane. We learned back in the 70's it was a bad idea. This is why the Europeans are smarter than us.

[iflyforpie]

Never understood why people put a t-tail on a prop airplane. We learned back in the 70's it was a bad idea. This is why the Europeans are smarter than us.

Diamond Aircraft Industries is an Austrian-based manufacturer of general aviation aircraft and motor gliders....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_Ai ... Industries

[Beefitarian]

Never understood why people put a t-tail on a prop airplane. We learned back in the 70's it was a bad idea. This is why the Europeans are smarter than us.

Diamond Aircraft Industries is an Austrian-based manufacturer of general aviation aircraft and motor gliders....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond_Ai ... Industries

Are you saying they're part of Europe pie? Your geography is terrible, it's down under mate. I could be kidding, I might not. That's what makes it a great joke.

[Type4]

Is my sarcasm detector broken?

Austria (Europe)vs Australia(down under)

[trey kule]

The T tail is kind of on/off in a soft field take off. Nothing, nothing, then bam. Just be ready to control that nose when it wants to pitch up.

so let me get this straight. There is no elevator authority on the start of the take off roll. So exactly what reason would you be using to have the elevator full up (CC all the way back)? According to you, nothing is happening.
Now when it does bite, again according to you ..bam...So why would you have the cc full back then if you know that when it takes effect the nose pop up, and you have to be ready to control it.
Am I the only one who cannot understand how this can make sense?
I am going to say it again. All planes are different in their technique. And your students should understand that thoroughly before you teach anyparticular procedure or you will end up with them saying....well this is the way we did it....
If you are flying a plane that has on elevator authority on the initial role and then suddenly gets to much authority because you have the cc all the way back, maybe you really need to use a bit of common sense, and figure out a better approximation of how much backpressure to imput initially so you dont have a big.....bam. it also might be just a bit safer if the wind is gusty.. Gusty winds and elevators that will suddenly become effective and holding them full back wil bite you.

As to Cat's idea of no OC FTU's. To be the devils advocate , did you consider that if they did what you suggest, it would not be us old guys out there, but some 20 year old, 300 hours wonder out there instructing. I am not sure that would improve things. At least in theory their is a CFI monitoring the training in the present situation. I say theory because if instructors are coming on here and talking about holding the cc full aft, it is obvious that some CFI's are not doing their job.

And as it has been decades since my instructor rating expired, how much training does a new instructor receive from an FTU?
Start at a good 703/4/5 operation and you get training (exceptins noted). How many flight schools require a newly hired instructor to go through any kind of initial training with them including ground training on the schools briefing, etc, and flight training? Or does every instructor show up (still) with their own brand of how to teach?

[trey kule]

Edited.

[Type4]

Sorry with my choice of wording. It does have "some" authority during the initial stages of the roll, but it doesn't come on very linear. Hence I said ease it forward as the airspeed is picking up. Obviously full back pressure during the starting stages of a roll isn't going to help get the nose wheel off the ground a whole lot quicker in the Diamond, but it'll still take a bit of weight off it. As mentioned full back pressure when rotating in the Diamond makes for some rude awakenings.

[trey kule]

rude awakenings!!!

You know I am an old guy. Being at this game for over 40 years. Filled up a few logbooks, and have not bent anything or hurt anyone so far.When I retire I want to instruct.....

And I dont like rude awakenings. If something you are doing is causing them ,perhaps instead of defending the technique that is causing them , you might just want to give some thought to how you coud do it different...Unless of course, flying to you is a about rude awakenings.

I find it hard to understand how peope can post that a certain technique can cause problems and then steadfastly defend it.
Think about it for a moment.. Why is the nose popping up and rudely waking you.....Why because you have to much up elevator. Yet peope here want to defend this technique....quite amazing. Reminds of when little kids get to drive a kiddy car...full extremes on the controls..

[Geo]

edited to stay on topic

[akoch]

I may have lost what it has been discussed here buried under a lot of posts. I own and fly a DA20, and I am not an experienced pilot. All I can say is that it does not go on/off on the elevator when you do the soft field. Yes, you hold the stick fully back initially, but once the nose-wheel starts to come up you gradually release the pressure maintaining the attitude. By the time it is ready to fly you are almost in neutral anyway, and then it flies off... Very easy, and actually intuitive.

[trey kule]

akoch,

Now that makes sense to me, though I have not ever flown the type.
Nothing like some experience and good flying skills to make things go smoothly..
I think there is a lesson in your post that some others would do well to think about.

[Shiny Side Up]

Never understood why people put a t-tail on a prop airplane. We learned back in the 70's it was a bad idea. This is why the Europeans are smarter than us.

In the case of the Diamond aircraft, the T-tail is used for ease of manufacture. If you get a chance go for a tour of the factory, its like walking through a giant snap-together kit.