Too Much Crosswind For A Fully-Loaded 172!

[square]

OK I think I wound up talking out of the wrong end of my person a little bit there, I was in fact referring to a stall recovery at the first indication of a stall and not an actual full on stall, no. Sorry for not making that clear. And yes the prop wash will by itself change the AOA of the wing even though you're not changing your attitude because of the air coming off the prop that gets thrown straight back across the wing. Combine that with the increasing airspeed from the thrust + subsequent lowering of the nose to stay level is what enables certain airplanes to recover from a stall indication without a full-on stall or a loss of altitude. Anyway my mistake.

[trey kule]

Here is an intersting bit from the latest news on the Air France crash which , in light of some of the posts here, I think is relevant

The BEA says it's unclear why the co-pilot at the controls, flying manually in what became the final minutes of the flight, maintained a nose-up input — contrary to the normal procedure to come out of an aerodynamic stall. Normally, the nose should be pointed slightly downward to regain lift in such a stall, often caused because the plane is traveling too slowly.

I think if the folks at the BEA simply read some of the posts on this thread from instructers, they might just have an idea of where this incorrect procedure was learned.

Maybe some of you who posted about keeping the nose up who are insturctors, might just like to rethink what it is exactly you are teaching your students. Power alone may not do it. If you are near the critical angle the plane will not power through that, and it should have been demonstrated in about 1 min during the pre solo slow flight stage. If one reads the definition of a stall from the FAA they will see that part of the definition is that the airplane will not maintain level flight with full power. So all this power talk is foolish. You must, absolutely must, reduce the AOA,
As far as twin training goes, I have some thoughts about trying to power through anything that might be below VMC, as if one engine does not respond correctly you might have some really interesting moments. It is better to reduce the AOA and bring the power up not quite to full power until VMC is reached (or a little below it if you have a forward c of g and are below gross weight. As to the prop wash over the wings...I am going to go out on a limb here, and state the same effect arises from a single engine prop.., and the single engine also gives you better rudder and elevator effectiveness when power is applied.....think of trying to get a 172 in a spin and why you use power to do that.

And , just as a thought, maybe spend a few minutes on wilkopedia reading about confirmation bias

I know this sounds harsh, but some of you who are instructing really need to learn all about the aerodynamics of stalls, the definitions, and the proper procedures instead of trying to defend logic that is bringing you to a totally incorrect conclusion

[Cat Driver]

I wonder how many instructors there out there that have no clue about the subject they are teaching?

[RenegadeAV8R]

I wonder how many instructors there out there that have no clue about the subject they are teaching?

Is you questioning only applicable to primary flight instructors, or to instructors at the airline level as well?

[Big Pistons Forever]

I wonder how many instructors there out there that have no clue about the subject they are teaching?

I can assure you every instructor I have taught has a very good idea how to recognize and recover from stalls and more importantly how to teach others the same skills.

But then I am trying to do my bit to make flight training better one person at a time, not just complaining about instructors on an internet forum

[Expat]

Big Pistons,
I hope that the instructors you turn out can do a 3 turn spin. Minimum...
I would not expect less in my CPL ride...

[Big Pistons Forever]

Big Pistons,
I hope that the instructors you turn out can do a 3 turn spin. Minimum...
I would not expect less in my CPL ride...

For my aerobatic instructor students, absolutely

For my aeroplane instructors all my instruction is on spin recognition and avoidance.

If a CPL is in the third turn of a spin then all that means is they:

1) failed to control yaw in the stall

2) failed to recover in the incipient spin stage

3) failed to recover after the first turn

4) failed to recover after the second turn

Or to put it more simply completely failed to promptly regain control flight, and thus failed the exercised......the purpose of spin training for PPL's and CPL's.

Sorry for the thread hijack... I will STFU now

[Expat]

No problem, I know the rules...I think I was lucky to find an instructor who completely took the fear of flying out of me, by actually instilling fun in the training, and in the training flights.
And we did the same fot cross winds. We went flying when everyone else was happy sipping coffee, waiting for the winds to calm.
Cheers,
ex

[Old Dog Flying]

BPF: I taught my CPL candidates to not only recognize and avoid spins but to enjoy them and hone their skills by being able to do a 3 turn spin and recover on the same line as the entry. It was a challenge but it helped with their hands on skills.

Barney The Crusty SOB

[Cat Driver]

I can assure you every instructor I have taught has a very good idea how to recognize and recover from stalls and more importantly how to teach others the same skills.

Wonderful, however you did not teach every instructor out there. From reading this forum I suspect there are a few instructors who do not understand the subject they are teaching.

But then I am trying to do my bit to make flight training better one person at a time, not just complaining about instructors on an internet forum

Yes you point that out to me at every opportunity, but you never seem to remember I was teaching flight instructors long before you ever got into the business.

There are two reasons I no longer teach at the ab-initio level nor do I teach for the issuance of a flight instructors rating.

First my flight instructors rating lapsed many decades ago.

Second I long ago quit working for next to nothing.

[2R]

It is possible to land a C-172 in about 150 feet of ground run with a reasonable headwind so if the crosswind gets to much; land across the runway if it is wide enough
You can practice this into wind cross wind minmum ground run landing technique safely landing on 12 at YVR wheels down at the intersection of 08 and 12 and get it stopped before going through the intersection.If you ask nicely they might let you come to a complete stop on 26/08.The extra twelve feet that the angle of crossing gives means you can practice this in 162 feet and get it slowed down enough so very little braking is required