How are students involved in a college program supposed to ever learn flying by being around in 10kt winds or a ceiling of 5k or higher?

Why are schools asking for 80k to give them a degree and experience flying in monkey iq weather?

This is for these so called professional pilot programs in the lower mainland. And these 10kt values are not xwind folks, it's just a generic wind of 10kt... in the CPL syllabus.

My eyes are kind of wide open right now ...

80k? refund?

Seems a little off to me, I have different limits for each of my guys as to what I will let them go ripping around in, once they get their PPL and are working towards CPL they are grown and make their own decisions (to a point). As for dual if it's legal we fly.

10 kts in any direction & 5000 feet ceiling cap? Geez, how the heck do they fly in GVRD with these limits? If I recall, when I did my PPL at CZBB (apparently loopa was there with me too), the limit & ceiling cap were no were that low.

As for dual if it's legal we fly.

Thank You.

These guys, especially CPL candidates need to see and build confidence in weather better than SKC CAVOK and 1500 OVC. How are they expected to get their first job saying no cause the winds are 15kts?

Not to say if it's gusting - these schools cancel flights and do ground briefings instead. While that's not entirely a bad idea, these students never get exposed to "marginal" weather flying and how are they ever supposed to make somewhat of an educated decision when the real world hits them? While I know FTU flying is nothing close to the real world, the syllabus should at least challenge them with something worse than 10kts and 5000 feet?

10 kt winds? I've sent a student on her first solo in a 90 degree crosswind higher than that. Granted she was an exceptional case as she was really good but I'd been out with her for a solo checkout and spent the whole thing looking out the window at the boring prairie so I was completely comfortable with her ability to get the airplane down on her own. Needless to say, she greased it!

Just out of curiosity; what colleges are you referring to? The only one I know of is Seneca.

I think there are only two in the lower mainland. 1 is Coastal Pacific out of YXX and the other is BCIT out of ZBB.

There is a school in eastern ontario (NOT seneca), associated
with a college, that does not permit more than 5 knots of
crosswind components.

Unsurprisingly, their graduates cannot land with a crosswind.

While this is good for "safety", it does not create good pilots.

Umm aren't instructors suppose to go up with students in cross wind condition to teach then gauge their performance?

moocow wrote:Umm aren't instructors suppose to go up with students in cross wind condition to teach then gauge their performance?

Of course, it's one of the required boxes to check in the PTR. Of course I learned to fly when things were a bit looser, and/or we were out of reach of TC. That year there weren't any crosswinds period, the wind was always straight up and down the runway so eventually I had to teach myself.

Quick question: Is this true about the wind and weather limitations? Not a rumor.
But verifiable fact.

Has uttering the word safety now become such a buzzword that it is hampering proper flight training?

I believe everything I read on the internet, and
don't do any of my own research. Saves time
and money on long-distance phone calls.

I believe you.
I have read some of the stuff you posted as fact.

I just find it a bit hard to believe that any FTu has this tight a restriction on their students. Not something I will lay awake at night thinking about, but it would explain why no one wants to hire new CPLs. I can see the cover letter. I am a graduate of xxx college and have a spiffy new watch, shades and a set of gold bars put away for upgrade, but I will need some basic training in how to handle a 5kt crosswind.

shitdisturber wrote:

moocow wrote:Umm aren't instructors suppose to go up with students in cross wind condition to teach then gauge their performance?

Of course, it's one of the required boxes to check in the PTR. Of course I learned to fly when things were a bit looser, and/or we were out of reach of TC. That year there weren't any crosswinds period, the wind was always straight up and down the runway so eventually I had to teach myself.

Is that why you were all ready to divert that day when I told you it was ten knots across the runway?

trey kule wrote:Quick question: Is this true about the wind and weather limitations? Not a rumor.
But verifiable fact.

Has uttering the word safety now become such a buzzword that it is hampering proper flight training?

If it wasn't going to slash this company all across the boards I would post a copy of their syllabus as an attachment. So for now you're going to have to take my word for it. This is straight out of their CPL syllabus ... I want to start a discussion about it - whomever is interested in learning which school this is can just ask to look at a copy of the syllabus as part of their school selection process and if they find what I'm talking about, it will be that school

What I'm even more amazed about is that they steal so much money and don't even put out pilot's that meet industry standards. While a 250 hour wonder is a no body, the people who haven't experienced more than 10kt winds in any direction are starting to become the epicenter for why we have people unable to recover from you'd think are simple phases of flight potentially being the cause of killing several hundred people on a dark night over dead waters.

Why has flight training simply turned into making money and teaching to the flight test (I'm not bashing all schools, just the ones that need to be leading by example - especially when they decide their program is worth 80k).

Jack I will PM you the school's name.

Wow. We had some restrictions with the ppl phase, but once it was cpl time, if it was legal we were flying. Flight training is definitely reaching for the bottom step these days...

Shiny Side Up wrote: Is that why you were all ready to divert that day when I told you it was ten knots across the runway?

Knowing the windsock lies, and you probably couldn't read it worth a damn anyway; while flying an airplane almost as wide as the runway, I had a backup plan. Of course the landing itself was my customary immaculate, on the center line, greaser. I'll show you how it's done some day grasshopper.

shitdisturber wrote: Knowing the windsock lies, and you probably couldn't read it worth a damn anyway; while flying an airplane almost as wide as the runway, I had a backup plan. Of course the landing itself was my customary immaculate, on the center line, greaser. I'll show you how it's done some day grasshopper.

The windsok doesn't lie, after all you know it lives too sheltered of a life to do so. I on the other hand do lie as is a well known fact. I really just wanted to test what your crosswind threshold was. Next time you ask its going to be 15 knots.

WileyCoyote wrote: Flight training is definitely reaching for the bottom step these days...

Can we stop the generalizations about FTU's? I train many CPL's and before I recommend them for a flight test they will have experienced a 12-15 kt x wind component. Most of my PPL students will also do this. I sell them on the point it may just save their life one day and they don't want to be an average private pilot.

I agree there is some poor training and excessive safety rules out there. There is also a lot of people trying hard to turn out a good product. It has also been said before that there aren't many operators coming to the FTU's to offer suggestions...

But what do I know? I'm just an instructor...

T-roper wrote:I sell them on the point it may just save their life one day

Argh...just the fact that you have to sell normal crosswind landing technique as a life saving skill is depressing. Everything up to the demonstrated x-wind should be fair game for ANY pilot on ANY airplane they fly. It's not rocket surgery people!!!

Maybe landing in a 40 knot x-wind (been there, done that) could be considered a life saving skill...but on the other hand, I wouldn't have attempted it if I wasn't 100% sure I could safely accomplish it.

I'd be interested in what kind of crosswind component was in that 40 knot wind plus what type of aircraft you were flying. I remember when I was sailing offshore and after a crossing some of the boats would gather and I'd listen to the stories of sailors that were out in the same wind/waves as us except by the time the stories came out the seas were higher and the wind stronger, you get the drift. 40 knots is a hell of a breeze and when you add a decent crosswind most light aircraft are not capable of dealing with these winds. If it was a light single aircraft then anybody with brains would simply land straight into it hense no crosswind.

T-roper wrote:

WileyCoyote wrote: Flight training is definitely reaching for the bottom step these days...

Can we stop the generalizations about FTU's? I train many CPL's and before I recommend them for a flight test they will have experienced a 12-15 kt x wind component. Most of my PPL students will also do this. I sell them on the point it may just save their life one day and they don't want to be an average private pilot.

I agree there is some poor training and excessive safety rules out there. There is also a lot of people trying hard to turn out a good product. It has also been said before that there aren't many operators coming to the FTU's to offer suggestions...

But what do I know? I'm just an instructor...

Good for you, it nice to see instructors trying to give more than the TC minimum. As for your request for "stopping the generalizations about FTU's"....well good luck with that

On a more serious note, it is also not only handling the crosswind that is important, at the CPL level you should be comfortable with up to a 10 knot tailwind. I try to give every student a tailwind approach and landing although at a busy airport with a control tower this can be difficult to fit in.

Fair enough, it was a turboprop and not a light single, and with a 40 knot crosswind (reference to the runway), you have other options other than landing down the length of a runway. Hint...I had less than a 30 knot groundspeed when I touched down

Big Pistons Forever wrote:
Good for you, it nice to see instructors trying to give more than the TC minimum. As for your request for "stopping the generalizations about FTU's"....well good luck with that

On a more serious note, it is also not only handling the crosswind that is important, at the CPL level you should be comfortable with up to a 10 knot tailwind. I try to give every student a tailwind approach and landing although at a busy airport with a control tower this can be difficult to fit in.

I agree that will never stop FTU generalizations. This website attracts a large audience and is not giving my profession a good name. Unfortunately It is hard to get a tailwind opportunity in the area I fly out of. But when we do it's a good learning experience.

Back to

HavaJava wrote: Argh...just the fact that you have to sell normal crosswind landing technique as a life saving skill is depressing. Everything up to the demonstrated x-wind should be fair game for ANY pilot on ANY airplane they fly. It's not rocket surgery people!!!

Unfortunately a lot (not all) of Private pilots think they are 45 hour wonders and just need the bare minimum. I wish I could say you were right!

lets see....a 40kt x wind component. And a headwind component that gave you a ground speed of 30 at arrival..Heck of a wind! I cant recall landing in winds like that except at the bar during happy hour

Are you sure it was not more that 40kts x wind? And you groundspeed was actually only 5kts?

The whole idea that this is even a topic for discussion is disturbing, and Loopa I accept your claim without further proof.

As to the generalizations. Unfortunately, the FTUs that provide this type of mandated training are not the ones that seem to be p umping out the majority of CPLs, so the generalization, I think, is fair.
There are always exceptions, though as someone said, having to sell learning how to land with a crosswind is a bit disappointing.

the great thing about this thread, is that x-wind landings our now a must do on our pre hire evaluations.

TC lurks here, and I hope that one of them will take note, and do something about correcting this situation with the colleges..CPL's that have never landed solo in a 10kt X wind...unblievable.

lastly, I noted a post about landing with a 10kt tailwind...Not sure that is the best training around, X-winds are a reality in flying. Tailwinds..Well, not so much. Better to save the student some money and give them a good briefing on the characteristics of tailwind landings. Otherwise they might just have some misplaced confidence and find out along enough runway is not.