Instrument time for CPL

[Rowdy Burns]

Hello,

A friend is looking to get his CPL signed off here in the next couple months. Please note he will not have his instrument rating signed off prior to the CPL sign-off. Odd question:

How many hours, if any, of instrument time, logged with a person qualified under the second quote below, can be used towards his CPL sign-off?

(ii) following the issuance of a private pilot licence — aeroplane by Canada or another contracting state, have completed 65 hours of commercial pilot flight training in aeroplanes consisting of a minimum of [...](A) 35 hours dual instruction flight time, under the direction and supervision of the holder of a Flight Instructor Rating — Aeroplane, including: [...] (III) 20 hours of instrument flight time in addition to the experience stated in subclauses (I) and (II). A maximum 10 hours of the 20 hours may be conducted on an approved aeroplane simulator or synthetic flight training device.

And

(9) A person who conducts flight training toward the issuance of an instrument rating shall be the holder of a Commercial Pilot Licence or an Airline Transport Pilot Licence, have an instrument rating, and:

(a) have a flight instructor rating; or

(b) have experience of not less than 500 hours pilot-in-command flight time, of which:

(i) not less than 100 hours shall be on the applicable aircraft group

Thoughts?

[Krimson]

Well as it says in the first quote; 20 hours of instrument time, 10 of which can be in a simulator.

200 hours are required for the commercial licence. A credit of 10 hours can be given for the use of a simulator (the same 10 hours of instrument).


So in total you must complete 190 hours in an aircraft for your CPL. For at least 10 of those 190 hours, you must be taught instrument flying. The other 10 hours (to make 200) may be in a simulator learning instrument flying. (Or in an aircraft if you prefer)



Even though your friend does not have his instrument rating, the purpose of this training is in case you inadvertently enter cloud that a CPL holder can safely exit the situation. It will not be something foreign to the pilot the first time s/he has to rely on instruments. This instrument training will not allow you to file IFR or fly in IMC, but just prepare you for it.

[KK7]

The 200 hours required for the CPL must ALL be flight time in aeroplanes. The 10 hours allowed in a simulator to meet the 20 hour instrument time requirement would be in addition to the 200 hours. Simulator time does not count as flight time.

20 hours of instrument time is required for the issuance of the CPL. All 20 hours that is counted towards the CPL application must have come from a qualified flight instructor, and up 10 of those 20 hours can be done in an approved simulator. Holding or not holding an instrument rating is irrelevant, except that if you have an instrument rating, you likely already meet the instrument requirement.

(4) Experience

(a) An applicant for a commercial pilot licence — aeroplane shall

(i) have completed, subject to paragraph (b), a minimum of 200 hours flight time in aeroplanes, of which a minimum of 100 hours shall be pilot-in-command time including 20 hours cross-country pilot-in-command flight time, and

(ii) following the issuance of a private pilot licence — aeroplane by Canada or another contracting state, have completed 65 hours of commercial pilot flight training in aeroplanes consisting of a minimum of:

(A) 35 hours dual instruction flight time, under the direction and supervision of the holder of a Flight Instructor Rating — Aeroplane, including:

(I) 5 hours night, including a minimum of 2 hours of cross-country flight time;

(II) 5 hours cross-country, which may include the cross-country experience stated in subclause (I); and

(III) 20 hours of instrument flight time in addition to the experience stated in subclauses (I) and (II). A maximum 10 hours of the 20 hours may be conducted on an approved aeroplane simulator or synthetic flight training device.

(B) 30 hours solo flight time including:

(I) 25 hours solo flight time emphasizing the improvement of general flying skills of the applicant which shall include a cross-country flight to a point of a minimum of 300 nautical mile radius from the point of departure and shall include a minimum of 3 landings at points other than that of departure; and

(II) 5 hours solo flight time by night during which a minimum of 10 takeoffs, circuits and landings were completed.

(b) An applicant who is a graduate from an approved integrated course shall have completed the applicable experience requirements in section 426.75 of the Canadian Aviation Regulations.

[Krimson]

Yes, KK7 is correct about the 200 hours, it must all be in an aeroplane.


Weird thing is this book I have clearly says
"10 hours of simulator + 190 hours aeroplane = 200 hours"

It's from Jan 06, but even looking up the previous version of the CARs, it does not include anything similar. Too bad I have been studying this 3" book for the past two days and am going in for a written tomorrow. Wonder what else was wrong

[robshelle]

I've been out of the instructor/flying game for a while, so please excuse the ignorance.

Can you still obtain an IFR rating from someone without an instructor rating? ie. sufficient IFR time in his/her log book.

And if that is the case, and you were able to obtain your IFR rating prior to your CPL from such a person, then would you still require 20 hours under the hood from a Flight Instructor?

Robbie Benusic
CYEG Tower

[KK7]

(see below for the regulations)

To get an instrument rating, one needs a total of 40 hours of instrument. Of that 40 hours, only 5 is required from from a qualified flight instructor, which was probably done during that pilot's PPL training.

The rest can be done by someone other than a flight instructor, however 15 hours are still needed from a "qualified" person, meaning a flight instructor with an appropriate instrument rating, or a CPL with instrument rating or ATPL holder who has 500 hours PIC, 100 hours PIC on the same group, and if a Group 1, 10 hours PIC on type.

Arguably, the majority of instrument rating holders did most of their training with a flight instructor, thus that time would meet the CPL requirement. Those who went with a non-instructor to get their instrument rating, would need an additional 15 hours from a flight instructor over their 5 hours they got doing their PPL.

(b) Experience

An applicant shall have completed a minimum of:

(i) 50 hours of cross-country flight as pilot-in-command in aeroplanes or helicopters of which 10 hours must be in the appropriate category; and

(ii) 40 hours of instrument time of which a maximum of 20 hours may be instrument ground time. The 40 hours instrument time shall include a minimum of:

(A) 5 hours of dual instrument flight time acquired from the holder of a flight instructor rating ,

(B) 5 hours in aeroplanes where the applicant is applying for a Group 1, 2 or 3 instrument rating or in helicopters where the applicant is applying for a Group 4 instrument rating,

(C) Fifteen (15) hours of dual instrument flight time provided by a qualified person as specified in section 425.21(9); and
(amended 1998/03/23; previous version)

(D) one dual cross-country flight under simulated or actual IMC conditions of a minimum of 100 nautical miles, the flight to be conducted in accordance with an IFR flight plan to include at, two different locations, an instrument approach to minima.

[fixnfly]

Question is answered.
Thanks

[nbinont]

I...and you were able to obtain your IFR rating prior to your CPL from such a person, then would you still require 20 hours under the hood from a Flight Instructor?

No, there's a credit if you already have your instrument rating 421.30(7)(c):

(c) Experience – Same Category – Instrument Rating
An applicant who holds or has held an instrument rating in the aeroplane category within the preceding 24 months is considered to have met the 20 hours dual instrument flight requirement of subclause 421.30(4)(a)(ii)(A)(III).

[DanWEC]

All of it. Hypothetically if you fly 20 hour under the hood with a safety pilot after your PPL, don't do a lick of instrument training with a flight instructor, meet all the other hour requirements (the 30/35 solo/dual post PPL DOES require a flight instructor) and pass a ride, you're golden.

[nbinont]

All of it. Hypothetically if you fly 20 hour under the hood with a safety pilot after your PPL, don't do a lick of instrument training with a flight instructor, meet all the other hour requirements (the 30/35 solo/dual post PPL DOES require a flight instructor) and pass a ride, you're golden.

That might be a bit of a shaky position. You'd need to be able to argue that you have somehow:

(ii)following the issuance of a private pilot licence — aeroplane ... have completed 65 hours of commercial pilot flight training in aeroplanes consisting of a minimum of:

(A) 35 hours dual instruction flight time, under the direction and supervision of the holder of a Flight Instructor Rating — Aeroplane, including:
...
(III) 20 hours of instrument flight time ....

Though your authorized person might not look too closely

It's much cleaner to get the instrument rating first and take the credit.

[DanWEC]

Reading it closer, you're actually right. I didn't realize the instrument time requirement fell within the 35 Dual time requirement, not outside. I stand corrected!

So all 20 hours of instrument time for the CPL MUST be done by a flight instructor.